بِسمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحْمٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيـمِ

In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

Angels created from Light?

 

Hadith followers believe Angels were created from light which is a misconception based on Hadiths making angels seem like one creation made entirely from Light (Nur), Question is can light exist without source? no where in the Quran Allah has made any claim of creating anything from light but Allah did present example of himself as source of all light in the universe.

Quran An-Nur 24:35

ٱللَّهُ نُورُ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلأَرْضِ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ ٱلْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ ٱلزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِن شَجَرَةٍ مُّبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونَةٍ لاَّ شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلاَ غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيۤءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ نُّورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ يَهْدِي ٱللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَن يَشَآءُ وَيَضْرِبُ ٱللَّهُ ٱلأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ وَٱللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلَيِمٌ

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly [white] star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things.

The Quran has not stated anywhere that angel’s were created  from light but Quran does state the Satan was once an Angel.

Quran Al-Baqarah 2:34

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَٰئِكَةِ ٱسْجُدُواْ لأَدَمَ فَسَجَدُواْ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَٱسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ ٱلْكَٰفِرِينَ

And [mention] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam”; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

Quran Al-Araf 7:11

وَلَقَد خَلَقنٰكُم ثُمَّ صَوَّرنٰكُم ثُمَّ قُلنا لِلمَلٰئِكَةِ اسجُدوا لِـٔادَمَ فَسَجَدوا إِلّا إِبليسَ لَم يَكُن مِنَ السّٰجِدينَ

We created you, then we shaped you, then we said to the angels, “Fall prostrate before Adam.” They fell prostrate, except Iblees (Satan); he was not with the prostrators.

Quran Al-Khaf 18:50

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلاۤئِكَةِ ٱسْجُدُواْ لأَدَمَ فَسَجَدُوۤاْ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلاً

And [mention] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate to Adam,” and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.

Quran Taha 20:116

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ ٱسْجُدُواْ لأَدَمَ فَسَجَدُوۤاْ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ

And [mention] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate to Adam,” and they prostrated, except Iblees; he refused.

Quran clearly states when angels were ordered to prostrate before Adam, All of them prostrated except Satan and he was among the Angels which explains many unanswered questions regarding who angels really are.

Angel is not just one species but can possibly be multiple species unknown to man and Jinns are of them. Many people would still continue to believe what they are being taught regarding Angels created from light which is a misconception and is in clear contradiction with science, Angel by definition and attributes are species dedicated to worshipping  Allah alone and serving his every command unlike disobedient Humans. Following verse clarifies the criteria for becoming an Angel.

Quran Al-Isra 17:95

 

قُل لَوْ كَانَ فِي ٱلأَرْضِ مَلاۤئِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ مَلَكاً رَّسُولاً

Say, “If there were upon the earth angels walking securely, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel [as a] messenger.”

Quran clearly states that if humans on earth upholded laws of Allah like Angels in heavens  then Allah would have surely sent Angels as messengers toward’s them rather than Humans which was being said in response to Mushrikeens demanding Allah to send Angel as messenger instead of Prophet Muhammad as a sign.

 

 

 

58 Comments

  1. Aminah

    سلام عليكم..
    Is it No indication in Quran that Angels are created from Light?

    Reply
    • admin

      سلام عليكم There is no indication in Quran that Angels were created from Light / NUR, Sadly its a lie and assumption made by scholars.

      Reply
      • Abdul-Ahmid

        You are the biggest liar! Woe to you for trying to change the word of the Creator!!!

        Reply
        • admin

          Excuse me? Where exactly have i tried to change the word of Allah? and do you even know the difference between Malak And Malik? you know nothing yet you behave as a critic.

          Reply
  2. Aa'esha

    It is not an assumption but a sahih hadith of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wa salam and Iblis was a jinn, never been an angel.

    Reply
    • admin

      Hadith is non sense and based on assumptions as hadiths were invented by kuffar / Munafiqeen to defame, insult and abuse the prophet and give him a bad image and also to render the quran unless as it was a propaganda against Quran.
      Where in the Quran it says Iblis was never an angel? Verse Please?
      According to Quran 2:43 Allah commanded Angels alone to prostrate to Adam and the iblis refused, We believe every word of Allah is precise and accurate and Allah commanded angels alone not rest of the creation in the following verse.
      Quran 2:34 And [mention] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam”; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.
      وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ
      Where Does it Say Allah commanded Angels and the Jinns? then why Allah has problem with iblis for not prostrating to Adam when Allah did not command the Jinns but Angels only and Allah is not even speaking to Jinns? or did Did Allah forgot to mention word ” Jinn ” in Ayah 2:34?
      Please do some research before saying something and this is the correct islamic way as Allah is perfect and the best teacher.

      Reply
      • Tarik

        وَاِذۡ قُلۡنَا لِلۡمَلٰۤـئِكَةِ اسۡجُدُوۡا لِاٰدَمَ فَسَجَدُوۡۤا اِلَّاۤ اِبۡلِيۡسَؕ كَانَ مِنَ الۡجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنۡ اَمۡرِ رَبِّهٖؕ اَفَتَـتَّخِذُوۡنَهٗ وَذُرِّيَّتَهٗۤ اَوۡلِيَآءَ مِنۡ دُوۡنِىۡ وَهُمۡ لَـكُمۡ عَدُوٌّ ؕ بِئۡسَ لِلظّٰلِمِيۡنَ بَدَلًا

        I dont know who you are but you are bringing the fitna in the hearts of muslims whether knowingly or unknowingly. You have left islam with your statement above and above all you have the lack of understanding of our deen and that lack of knowledge cant be fixed because of uncuring high opinion of yourself and egoism in self thought by denying the thoughts of great muslims scholars before us – who put the hadith as an explanation of quran. Which was the sole purpose of Rasulullah a.s.w.s just like it was the sole purpose of the prophets a.s.w.s before him as mentioned in quran. May Allah help us.

        Reply
        • admin

          Can you please support your claim by any verse of the quran that i should follow the scholars? You want me to be like Christians and jews who took their scholars instead of Allah? First of all Quran is Kitab Al Mubeen which means clear book and needs no explanation from your satanic scholar you serve.
          One more time, Truth needs no explanation and the down fall of muslims is due to poor understanding of quran by your so called scholars of islam.
          Quran is not Clear? Word of God needs your clarification and of your scholars?
          فَإِذَا قَرَأْنَاهُ فَاتَّبِعْ قُرْآنَهُ ﴿١٨﴾ ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا بَيَانَهُ: :19 75
          Then upon Us is its clarification [to you].

          Reply
      • Erlik

        Quran Al-Khaf 18:50

        وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلاۤئِكَةِ ٱسْجُدُواْ لأَدَمَ فَسَجَدُوۤاْ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلاً
        Clearly states Count Iblis (or Iblees, as you like to call him ) was of the Djinni

        Reply
        • admin

          Yes Iblis was a Jinn but what does word لِلْمَلاۤئِكَةِ malaika literally means? Well it means Owners ( Creatures with Ranks) in Quran 3:26 Allah calls himself Owner of Owners, and in 12:101 Allah made Yusuf Owner ملْكِ Malak so the word Malak in Quran is a rank not a creature but Jinn is creature.
          Iblis was not stripped of his power because Allah pardoned him till day of judgement upon his request, Satan does hold ownership and power over disbelievers in this world as mentioned in quran 17:64 And incite [to senselessness] whoever you can among them with your voice and assault them with your horses and foot soldiers and become a partner in their wealth and their children and promise them.” But Satan does not promise them except delusion.

          Quran 35:1 speaks of ranks among malaika/owners, More wings higher the rank.

          Reply
      • zahra

        however angels have no free will so if iblis refused then he is not an angels as they have no free will or is that another lie as well according to you?

        Reply
        • admin

          Do you have a verse of the Quran that says Angels have no free will?
          Allah asked Angels to prostrate to Adam not Ants, birds, Fishes and other creatures but Angels Only.

          Reply
  3. Husameldin

    Thanks guys now i am genuinely confused.

    Reply
    • admin

      No need to be confused just reform your concepts with Quran Alone.

      Reply
    • Fellow human

      Tactics on this website are to spread doubt and disbelieve.

      Anyone with even just a grain of faith in the existence of the One and only Creator would respect another’s believes and/or views.

      The one(s) really behind this website are the shayateen. Send to whisper in the ears of men who disbelieve. To divide mankind and cause enmity amongst ourselves.

      God willing they’ll eventually be able to resist the temptations of hate and lying/covering up the truth.

      Reply
      • admin

        This is indeed true islam and munafikeen like yourself dislike it, im sorry but hypocrisy is your culture instead of valid answers your criticising.

        Reply
  4. Broseph

    You’re 100% correct. Couldn’t agree more.

    Lol at the skeptics who immediately accuse you of disbelief without showing a spec of proof from the Quran.

    Also to the O.P – Thank you for this article as it has cleared up the debate of what the angels are, from an Islamic perspective.
    You should check out the book of Enoch and the 200 ‘Fallen Angels’. Makes a lot of sense when you think of demons as trapped and tormented souls which are bound on the earth until judgement, which is why they cannot do anything but mislead man from the way of God.

    Reply
  5. Amjad

    Quran alone is way forward quran itself warns not to follow any hadith other than the best fully detaiked haduth quran see the proof for your self hadith books contaon cobtradictions just like bible torah in this day age would you follow them No man made so are the hadith

    Reply
  6. stewjo004

    Alright let me keep this simple if I prove using only the Quran that the Prophet(saw) had other forms of revelation besides it (and you agree it does) and then explain the history of hadith compilation will you accept it?

    Reply
    • admin

      Prove to me Prophet had revelations other than Quran and we can discuss?

      Reply
      • Abdul-Ahmid

        You need help!!! You clearly contradict yourself from all your illogical and dumb explanations given!

        You purely lack the understanding of the Quran and you claim it needs no explanation?

        Well Woe on to you for your mishuidance and I dnt pray Allah guides you to truth for misleading people here!

        You should stop offering solat and don’t give Zakat if you comprehend the Quran without the help of a learned teacher!

        Reply
        • admin

          Quran 75:19 ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا بَيَانَهُ
          Allah is the only teacher of Quran, No where Allah commads you to learn it from people but Allah says اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ Read in the Name of your lord And Explanation is upon Allah.
          Islam of today is the result of poor understanding of Quran by your scholars. We welcome you to a dialogue if you think your capable?

          Reply
  7. stewjo004

    Okay, let’s establish if the Prophet(saw) had other forms revelations other than the Qur’an. Allah says:

    The Prophet told a secret to one of his wives and when she told it to another wife and Allah REVEALED this to him, he later told her some of it, and kept the rest to himself. When he finally confronted her with what she had done, she asked: “Who told you this?” and he replied: ‘The One who is All-Knowing TOLD me.” (66:3)

    So the first question for you is where in the Qur’an did Allah reveal to the Prophet(saw) that one of his wives told a secret that he told her?

    Next ayat:
    It’s been made permissible for you to be intimate with your wives on the night of the fast. They are your cover and you are theirs. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves. He has accepted your repentance and forgave you. Now you may enjoy their company… (2:187)

    The words ‘accepted your repentance and forgave you’ show that prior to this ayat being intimate with your wife during the nights of Ramadan was a sin. And the words”NOW you may enjoy their company” shows that this ayat is what made it allowed. So where in the Qur’an does Allah say that we can’t be intimate with our wives during the nights of Ramadan?

    Final ayat:

    I have made you a middle nation, so that you can be a witnesses against humanity, and so that the Messenger can be a witness against you. I made the Qiblah which you used to face, only to test, those who would FOLLOW the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels and run away. It was difficult except for those whom God guided. And God would never make your faith go to waste because God’s full of kindness and Forever Merciful to mankind.
    (2:143)

    We know that in Mecca and a year in Medina the Muslims used to pray facing Jerusalem. But once this ayat came down the Jews and the hypocrites in Medina objected. The point of interest for us here is that the Allah says He appointed the previous Qibla even though it’s not mentioned in the Qur’an. Obviously, it was Prophet (saw) who used to teach the people to face Jerusalem yet Allah says He appointed this. The ayat says:

    “I made the Qiblah which you used to face …” and not,

    “The Prophet made the Qiblah which you used to face …”

    So all these (especially the last one) are evidence that the Prophet(saw) spoke on authority regarding the religion not found in the Qur’an.

    Reply
    • Muslimtruthrevealed

      Assalaam Alaikum

      [Al-Tahrim 66.3] Waith asarra alnnabiyyu ila baAAdi azwajihi hadeethan falamma nabbaat bihi waathharahu Allahu AAalayhi AAarrafa baAAdahu waaAArada AAan baAAdin falamma nabbaaha bihi qalat man anbaaka hatha qala nabbaaniya alAAaleemu alkhabeeru

      وَإِذْ أَسَرَّ النَّبِيُّ إِلَى بَعْضِ أَزْوَاجِهِ حَدِيثًا فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَتْ بِهِ وَأَظْهَرَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ عَرَّفَ بَعْضَهُ وَأَعْرَضَ عَن بَعْضٍ فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَهَا بِهِ قَالَتْ مَنْ أَنبَأَكَ هَذَا قَالَ نَبَّأَنِيَ الْعَلِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ

      Your presumption that Allah has revealed something other than the Quran is NOT supported by the language of the Ayah, Arabic Mubeen.

      The ayah is actually CONFIRMING that the ONLY “Hadith” that the Prophet conveyed is FROM Allah wa athharahu Allahu وَأَظْهَرَهُ اللَّهُ
      athharahu he informed (Verb Form IV)

      Allah confirms the term HADEETHAN حَدِيثًا tell or narrate (Verb Form II) in the ayah!

      Allah is the mudtada/subject of the object, Hadeethan.

      Hadeethan is Mafool Bihi the Object that the Prophet is conveying that is FROM Allah!

      The Quran is the hadeeth that the Prophet is conveying!

      اللّهُ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ لَيَجْمَعَنَّكُمْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ وَمَنْ أَصْدَقُ مِنَ اللّهِ حَدِيثًا (4:87)

      أَوَلَمْ يَنظُرُواْ فِي مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ مِن شَيْءٍ وَأَنْ عَسَى أَن يَكُونَ قَدِ اقْتَرَبَ أَجَلُهُمْ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ (7:185)

      تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ (45:6)

      Allah mentions TWO types of Hadith in the Quran:

      اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابًا مُّتَشَابِهًا مَّثَانِيَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلَى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ يَشَاء وَمَن يُضْلِلْ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ (39:23)
      ahsana/BEAUTIFUL a’hadeethi الْحَدِيثِ to speak to (or with), talk to (or with), converse with, discourse with; to hold a conversation with; to hold talks with, confer with, occurring, happening, taking place, going on; under way, in progress, in process, incident, occurrence, event, happening, episode; accident, mishap; case; fact

      AND

      [Luqman 31.6] BUT THERE ARE, among men, those who follow other (diverting/divisive) / HADITHS, to mislead (others) from the Path of Allah by altering/changing the knowledge/understanding and to throw ridicule (on the Path). for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

      وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْتَرِي لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَيَتَّخِذَهَا هُزُوًا أُولَئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ

      Allah states in the Quran regarding those who REJECT Allah’s hadith and follow lahwa a’hadith:

      [AL-QALAM 68.44] THEN LEAVE ME ALONE WITH SUCH AS REJECT THIS HADITH. BY DEGREES SHALL WE PUNISH THEM FROM DIRECTIONS THEY PERCEIVE NOT.

      [Al-Qalam 68.44] Fatharnee waman yukaththibu BIHATHA ALHADEETHI sanastadrijuhum min haythu la yaAAlamoona
      فَذَرْنِي وَمَن يُكَذِّبُ بِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ سَنَسْتَدْرِجُهُم مِّنْ حَيْثُ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

      Your “Qiblah/Qibla” argument is even more presumptive and is NOT supported by the language of the Quran.

      I will address in another post shortly.

      Reply
    • admin

      Okay, Lets begin with verse 66:3
      وَإِذْ أَسَرَّ النَّبِيُّ إِلَىٰ بَعْضِ أَزْوَاجِهِ حَدِيثًا فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَتْ بِهِ وَأَظْهَرَهُ اللَّـهُ عَلَيْهِ عَرَّفَ بَعْضَهُ وَأَعْرَضَ عَن بَعْضٍ ۖ فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَهَا بِهِ قَالَتْ مَنْ أَنبَأَكَ هَـٰذَا ۖ قَالَ نَبَّأَنِيَ الْعَلِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ
      Translation you have presented uses word “Revealed” which is “أُنزِلَ” in arabic and its being replaced by word أَظْهَرَهُ Azharah which means “Showing” or “Made Apparent” so Allah has not revealed to the prophet anything other than Quran. Allah works in mysterious ways so there is a possibility Allah had prophet in such a situation where he heard his wife sharing the secret or the secret whom wife shared with had shared with someone else and prophert happened to listened. Allah knows the real understanding and secondly it prophets personal matter but Arabic Verse is clear that Prophet Witnessed it being shared and did not receive a revelation from any of the angels.

      Next Verse 2:187
      أُحِلَّ لَكُمْ لَيْلَةَ الصِّيَامِ الرَّفَثُ إِلَىٰ نِسَائِكُمْ ۚ هُنَّ لِبَاسٌ لَّكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لِبَاسٌ لَّهُنَّ ۗ عَلِمَ اللَّـهُ أَنَّكُمْ كُنتُمْ تَخْتَانُونَ أَنفُسَكُمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَعَفَا عَنكُمْ
      Verse does not state anywhere it was a sin before revelation of this verse, Prophet had no knowledge and prefered to stay away from them and punish his own nafs for lack of knowledge but Allah is merciful and He made it clear that you can intimate with your wife and Allah has forgiven you for deceiving/Punishing your desireful nafs for which no such commandment was given.
      The moral of this verse is clearly lack of prophet’s knowledge.
      likewise in Quran 66:1 Prophet forbid something just for satisfaction of wives which proves the prophet was fallible and things from prophet other than quran are not to be taken.
      So my question is on whos Authority in Quran 66:1 prophet forbid? and was Allah happy with his decision?

      Final Verse 2:143
      I have made you a middle nation, so that you can be a witnesses against humanity, and so that the Messenger can be a witness against you. I made the Qiblah which you used to face, only to test, those who would FOLLOW the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels and run away. It was difficult except for those whom God guided. And God would never make your faith go to waste because God’s full of kindness and Forever Merciful to mankind.
      (2:143)

      Islam was not something original but continuation of Abrahamic faith, Jews and the christians prayed towards jursalem so did the early muslims and prophet was not teaching which direction to pray in but praying in direction same as jews and the christians. on the matter of direction prophet was confused himself as stated in followig verse
      Quran 2:114
      قَدْ نَرَىٰ تَقَلُّبَ وَجْهِكَ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۖ فَلَنُوَلِّيَنَّكَ قِبْلَةً تَرْضَاهَا
      We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased
      How can a man teach others to face a certain direction when He himself is confused unless guided by Allah?
      So the prophet was simply facing the direction with others ( Jews & Christians ).

      Reply
      • stewjo004

        To begin just taking a word anytime it appears in a verse and creating a theology around it is a fallacy. For example I can using the exact same methodology you did legitimize hadith:

        The man from Egypt who had bought him said to his wife: “Make his stay generous, perhaps he will benefit us or we may take him as a son.” And it was thus that We established Joseph in the land and to teach him the interpretation of HADITH…(12:21)

        But that is not real scholarship. Moving on, yes you are correct the Qur’an is a hadith. So I just have a quick question because I never see Quranist talk about this. How did the Qur’an reach us?

        Reply
      • stewjo004

        My apologies for my late response I didn’t receive a notification that you replied to my post.

        2:187
        This ayat clearly states this was a sin previous to this ayat. Idk how to bold on a blog post so I’m going to show the parts in English with transliteration

        To begin this ayat is not talking to the Prophet but Muslims in general. There are many ayat where Allah addresses the audience as you. Next, in the ayat Allah clearly says He forgave them (indicating a sin has been committed). Read the ayat slowly (emphasis mine):

        “It’s been made permissible for you to be intimate with your wives on the night of the fast. They are your cover and you are theirs. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves. He has ACCEPTED YOUR REPENTANCE AND FORGAVE YOU. NOW you may enjoy their company…” (2:187)

        Fataba alaykum waʿafa ankum.

        Allah then says after this fal ana (now) you all may have sex with them. This means before Muslims could not. Where does Allah make this act forbidden in the Qur’an?

        2:143
        I think you may have misunderstood these ayat (also you misquoted it’s 2:143). The ayat:

        “I have seen you keep turning your face toward the sky. Indeed, I will turn you to a direction of prayer that will please you, so turn your face in the direction of Masjid Al Haram…” (2:144)

        Does not mean the Prophet was confused about the Qiblah. (Unless we want to say Muslims were making salah on their backs lol) ”Turning your face towards the sky” means he was looking up at the sky for revelation to come down because he wanted the qiblah to change. Now with that being said you did not answer my question.

        Just saying the Christians and Jews pray towards Jerusalem is insufficient. They do a lot of things. On what basis for 13 years did the Prophet have on teaching to pray towards Jerusalem? There is no revelation whatsoever in the Quran to state it. Even if I go with what you’re saying, if the Prophet was “confused” Allah corrected it so are you saying it took Allah 13 years to tell Muslims which way to pray properly?

        Reply
        • admin

          Regarding 2:187
          For the sake of argument if i agree with you that it was a sin but the Question is why Allah is turning in forgiveness? did KUM ( prophet or sahaba ) were sleeping with their wives in ramadan while it was forbidden? and they disobeyed? ( i want to know sin committed that made Allah turn in forgiveness)
          According to the ayah why would Allah turn in forgiveness when no sin is being committed as it was forbidden?
          It is clear Allah had to turn in forgiveness because they were inventing what was never commanded and i would really like to know how you would respond to this argument.

          Now 2:143
          Your telling me it didnt take Allah just 13 years but more than thousand years to tell people which direction to pray in properly?
          Ofcourse Masjid Al Aqsa was the first direction As Allah says turning the direction from Masjid Al Aqsa to Masjid al Haram was a test as to who will be a believer.
          Turning direction from what towards Masjid Al Haram?

          Now 12:21
          Word hadith in 12:21 indicates to dream which yusuf saw of stars and how he got to egypt is way of Allah teaching interpretation of dream.

          How did we get the Quran?
          Well, you dont accept Bible as word of GOD? why? ofcourse its transmitted /passed on by humans and you know the issues.
          Allah says in the Quran that Allah is the Guardian/Protector of Quran and it is Allah who preserved it through ages from corruption of Humanity.
          If you check Quran 25:5 it is prophet muhammad himself writing down the Quran.
          Humans have done a terrible job passing on anything and Hadith is a very good example which you are yourself witness to its corruption and dishonesty/ hypocrisy of those who passed on.

          Reply
  8. Stewjo004

    I was speaking to the other gentlemen but I since you responded I guess we can keep going

    12:21
    I know it’s not evidence for hadith. I was responding to Muslimtruthrevealed who thought posting a single verse with a word in it means something and then gave an example of how I could do the same thing and that this methodology is not scholarly.

    2:143
    Your analogy is faulty regarding “a thousand years to pray properly”. There was no prophet at that time there is one walking around right there during Quranic revelation. Allah for the most part immediately corrects wrong ways of worship. Moving on, yes some people were sleeping with their wives at night and sinning. The Sahaba are not angels and everyone sins. They we’re deceiving themselves into thinking they were not sinning because of various excuses.

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=246

    There is a multitude of ayat in which they sin and Allah forgives them. There is nothing in this ayat to indicate what you’re saying, however. When people invent things about the religion Allah says certain things (pretty much all of Surah An’am is about this). Most importantly, we’ve gotten distracted from the big issue, wherein the Qur’an (which you say is the only revelation the Prophet(saw) received) does it say to pray towards Jerusalem or a different Qiblah before Masjid Al Haram period? None of the ayat in Surah Baqarah regarding the Qiblah change even mention Jerusalem (you only know that because of hadith). Also, Allah says they committed a sin so where is the ruling they could not before. Again Allah says “NOW you may…” indicating an abrogation has taken place.

    Qur’an, Bible and Hadith
    This one is forgivable because you haven’t studied the compilation history of these things. Your analogy of the Bible is flawed because the Jews have a over 1,000-year transmission break and no chain of narrators. The early Christians were illiterate and again have no narrators.

    The Qur’an and Hadith are a different animal. To begin, the argument regarding Allah protecting the dhikr is illogical. There is no magical forcefield around the Quranic text or if you place in alif in the wrong place your hand becomes possessed and corrects it. The Qur’an is a hadith itself (specifically Mutawatir) it was transmitted to us through the same channel the sunnah was. There is no way you can disprove the sunnah without disproving the Qur’an as well. Most people don’t actually understand hadith collection or its history which is why you have never seen a Sahaba, Tabieen, Tabi Tabieen or pretty much ANY scholar in 1,400 years ever reject them. First off. it’s common sense if a Sahaba had a question about the Qur’an they would go ask the Prophet(saw) about it, You don’t think they would then tell their students what he told them about an ayat? Furthermore, we know multiple Sahaba such as Ibn Abbas(ra), Ibn Umar(ra) and Aisha(ra) wer’re teaching ahadith in their schools. Are you accusing them of lying?

    If you properly studied ahadith (or anything in Islam that caused doubt) I PROMISE you, you would not be a Quranist. I’ll give a small example, here is hadith Thaqalayn and it’s chains:
    http://twelvershia.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Tree-of-Thaqalayn-Chains.pdf

    Every person in those chains is attested usually through multiple books specifically dedicated to this subject about their character, beliefs, memory etc. You will now see the person pick apart each chain and why:
    http://twelvershia.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/List-of-Texts-and-Chains-of-Thaqalayn.pdf

    Now compare that to what the Jews and Christians have:

    Hebrew Bible:

    The “gospels of”

    Absolutely no comparison they don’t even know their sources for the whole book, let alone individual stories contained within. It was not an amateur hour and Chinese whispers when it comes to ahadith. This is why it’s a major field of study in Islam, Muhaddith quite frankly did a fantastic job.

    Reply
    • admin

      You mean prophet and sahaba were sleeping with wives when they were commanded not to?
      Btw tafsir is ones own perspective which no one is to follow as Allah is the teacher of Quran, Mainstream tafsirs are satanic propoganda ( Plus Abusing the prophet as in 66:1 ) and Quran is kitab ul mubeen a clear book and truth needs no explanation.
      and as for sunnah i will post articles later and i dont find sunnah anything more or less than superstition (like enter toilet with your left foot? which i consider a joke from munafik posing as sahabi) and taghut. There is only one Sunnah and thats sunnah of Allah.
      and please make a single post not duplicate posts with same reply and no google links as they are lengthy and cause the page to break.
      And for your kind information i dont know when you converted to islam but i have been studying islam since childhood and i was raised as a sunni.

      Reply
      • stewjo004

        The Prophet (saw) was not but other Sahaba were. Again the Sahaba are humans and there are other ayat where Allah forgives them of sin:

        A. Running during Uhud: 3:152, 3:155, 3:159
        B. Abrogation of charity before talking with the Prophet: 58:13
        C. One of the big themes of Surah Tauba (hence it’s name) is on 3 Sahaba sinning (by purposely not going to Tabook) and Allah forgiving them: 9:102-106, 9:117-118

        There’s more but the point is proven.

        Also, watch what you’re saying because as has been proven the Prophet was saying things such as Qiblah that are not found in the Qur’an. You could say something in ignorance and go to disbelief and Allah throw you into Hell because of it. 9:65-66, 49:2 (For example, the reason the right is favored is to remind you of Yawm Al Qiyamah 17:71, 57:12, 69:19, 84:7-8, 90:17-20 not because of superstition. Just because you don’t see the wisdom behind command doesn’t mean the world doesn’t.)

        Next, you attempted to relate hadith with Biblical textual history. As I demonstrated from the links they are two completely different things. (For others interested examine my link on a hadith compared to “four source theory” and “JEPD theory”)

        You’re a “born Muslim” argument is:
        A. A Fallacy- Many people born into Islam don’t know anything about it.
        B. Hurts your case as the majority of Sahaba are reverts.

        I brought this up because I think you and others who have doubt about hadith should do a basic course from those qualified to speak on the subject. All I’m asking is for you go to this link, sign up for the Usool Al Hadith class, do your own formal research then make a decision about the subject. Which I don’t think is crazy.
        https://diploma.islamiconlineuniversity.com/opencampus/course/index.php?categoryid=11

        So in conclusion:
        1. The Prophet was teaching things regarding the religion not found in the Quran such as Qiblah
        2. There is no time in history that Allah sent a Scripture without someone to explain it
        3. The Quran reached us over a thousand years later through the same channels as hadith
        4. Any argument you fire at hadith can be applied to the Quran (seeing as it’s a hadith in and of itself )
        5. If we have doubts about the religion we should study it more
        6. Muhadith did a fantastic job considering all this took place before there were even knights lol

        Reply
        • Admin

          What makes you say prophet was not sleeping with wives but sahaba were? do you have a time machine? or are you inventing?

          A Running in UHAD? They relied on their numbers instead of Allah so a trial of Allah struck them while prophet was calling them from behind.

          B. Abrogation of charity? Verse does not speak of abrogation anywhere but it is for those who could not afford to present charity or feared presenting as they could present without fear after revelation of this verse.

          C Sahaba were scared and remained behind but they were over come by guilt but Allah forgave them as all humans are fallible.

          Conclusion: you have proven nothing but invented and used irrelevant verses and thus came to conclusion than you have proved your point.

          was Prophet infallible? as im sure you and your brothers believe he was but that concept is shirk and against Quran as he made couple of mistakes check verse 66:1 he invented on his own and asbab e nazol for that verse is a joke and an abuse to prophet turning him into a womaniser, Quran chapter 80 He frowned and turned away from a blind man and preferred giving attention to rich over ugly old blind man who came looking for him, Quran 17:73/75 He was about to change the Quran but Allah strengthened him and warned him of consequence.

          Prophet Muhamad never taught anything outside Quran if he did then read 69:44-47 so this argument of teaching direction is only an assumption of falsifier to win an argument.
          Plus you have been ripped off your understanding as i am not sitting here and mocking verses of Allah or prophet but defending them from slanders invented by Hadith fan boys AKA mushrikeen/ munafikeen. People like you are more scared of Prophet than Allah and you can be fed any lie in name of prophet because you lack understanding as Allah mentioned in Quran 59:13 You are more fearful within their breasts than Allah . That is because they are a people who do not understand.

          Born Muslim Argument
          A We have been learning islam since childhood and im not saying i am in any way better than any other human but i see converts relying heavily on taghut which are scholars, hadiths and mainstream stream nonsense rather than Quran just to make born Muslims whom they converted for happy.

          B Revert? what is a revert? lol
          You used to Salah at birth? recite quran? or you started mentioning Allah and praying as soon as you came to your senses after birth and were born with who GOD is in your DNA? Even i was not born that way. so you reverted? reverted to what please? explain me ways you reverted back you, increase me in knowledge (Proves so called social converts fall for any nonsense).
          Do you have verse to support that you were born as a muslim? Quran says Allah created man and then taught him everything, nobody is born Muslim but more like agnostic unaware of truth.

          Reply to your conclusions

          1. Prophet was not teaching anything other than Quran check 69:44-47 also check 69:40 as it will shock you.
          2. Kitab Ul Mubeen ( Clear Book) needs explanation? You must be joking.
          3. Quran reached us because Allah protected it otherwise you are aware of what happened to previous books, Quran was written by prophet himself check 25:5, The channel of hadith transmitters is unreliable and a group of disbelievers who only intended to abuse prophet.
          4. None of my arguments can be fired back at Quran, if you think so then give a shot. Hadith stands on nothing, i challenge you to a dialogue on Article of first revelation on this site plus your oath seems more like a cover.
          5. There are not doubts regarding Islam from Quran, Answer’s everything. Islam outside Quran is superstition, stupid and a bad joke from bunch of disbelievers.
          6. you are doing a fantastic job making your fellow muslims whom you converted for happy instead of seeking truth and Allah.

          Reply
  9. stewjo004

    To begin you are very arrogant and have little knowledge you should pray to Allah to cure you of it. You have not been insulted but you must feel insecure or embarrassed which is why you feel the need to puff your chest and insult so you can save face. Down the line:

    A. The battle of Hunain is when they relied on their numbers, the battle of Uhud is when the archers left the hill. This is even mentioned in Qur’an:

    “God has helped you on many battlefields, even on the day of the BATTLE OF HUNAIN. You were happy with your LARGE NUMBERS, but they were of no use to you. The earth seemed to close in on you despite its vastness, and you turned around and ran away.” (9:25)

    B. Abrogation of charity before talking to the Prophet. Let’s read the verses together:
    Oh you who have believed, when you wish to consult with the Messenger in private, give something in charity before your private meeting. That will be better and purer for you, ˹but˺ if you don’t have the means, then God is the Most Forgiving and Merciful.Are you scared of giving in charity before your private meeting? If you didn’t THEN DO SO (fa itha), God has forgiven you, but you should establish your prayers, give charity, and obey God and His Messenger ˹because˺ God has full news of all that you’re up to. (58:12-13)

    But whatever not a big deal worth arguing about. There are bigger issues for you and your position,

    C. I said Sahaba we’re humans you were the one arguing against it. Also you have committed a “strawman fallacy”. Please list where I said the Prophet(saw) was perfect.

    D. Also another strawman I have never mocked a verse of Quran please show where I did that.

    E. You have not studied textual criticism of Biblical history nor hadith compilation while I have. I have also proven them to be 2 completely different things. So you’re analogy is flawed (and you shoot yourself in the foot because the Quran verifies things in the Talmud)

    F. Allah says every soul created agreed to be Muslim:
    “When your Lord took from the backs of the children of Adam, their seeds and made them give testimony against themselves, asking them: “Am I not your Lord?” They replied: “Yes, of course you are our Lord and we testify to that.” So you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection: “I didn’t know anything about this! It was my parents and ancestors who started equating things with God way before me and I’m just their offspring so are you going to destroy me because of these people who made up lies?” And that is how I explain to you the revelations so they can come back…” (7:172-174)

    This is why the Quran and Islam are given the name “Thikr” because it is a reminder of the agreement we made with Allah.

    G. I’ll ask once again how did the Quran reach us over 1,000 years later? Your “the Quran says it’s protected” argument is circular. If you want to continue down this circular line there is a hadith that says:
    Narrated ‘Ubaidullah bin Abu Rafi:
    from Abu Rafi’ and others, from the Prophet (ﷺ) who said: “Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when a command I ordered, or a prohibition from me comes to him, and he says: ‘I do not know. What we find in the Book of Allah, we follow it.’”
    https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/41/19

    So you have been prophesied about and warned against. But since you wouldn’t take that as evidence I want you to explain how the Quran reached us in this day and age. Pretend I’m an atheist on the street. NO Quranist can ever explain this. Why is that? Because… the Quran is itself a SUPER LONG hadith. It has chains of narrators etc to it. That is what Warsh, Hafs etc is it is the name of the narrators.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27at

    So again ANYTHING you throw at hadith applies to the Qur’an. This is why being a “Quranist” makes no sense.

    G. You still haven’t gotten around the problem about the Qiblah. Who was teaching Muslims about a different Qiblah and where is this different Qibla mentioned in the Quran?

    H. Next question please list a time in history where Allah sent a Scripture without a prophet to explain it to the people if you do I’ll concede my point. The reason hadith and the Seerah is important is because it gives a timeframe of revelation. Without this oohhhh….boy I can really start twisting ayat and make the Quran say quite a few things if I really want to.

    Reply
    • Admin

      True Knowledge and Understanding is exclusively for chosen slaves of Allah and Quraniyoon are the only true slaves of Allah, Allah knows whats within you and what your intentions are thus Allah never guides sinners/ Fasikeen, Check Quran 76:30 do you think you will be guided just because you wish? You think you’re seeking truth but your not truely! but you ended up obeying every Fasik and imposter feeding you every kind of filth in the name of Allah and Prophet ( Like Hadith), i dont know why maybe as a recompense of your past sins as Allah knows best, just look at muslim nations as everyone of them is ruled by a trangressing tyrant and they justify their every crime in name of Allah. You became a member of a cult in hearts of which is a disease and its not going anywhere till death as mention in Quran 97:107-110.

      A. Quran 9:25 mentions day of Hunain not battle of Hunain and why did the archers abandoned their posts?

      B. Verse does not abrogate charity but mentions those who are poor and who have not presented as i have already answered.

      C. i have not commited any “strawman fallacy” as you excluded prophet from being fallible.

      D. Saying “Argument against hadith can be used against Quran” is mocking the Quran, Comparing word of Lord against sinning Human?

      E. How many prophets were sent to nation of israel? Many but not everyone was given a scripture as their wisdom is saved in talmud thats why Allah expose jews for mixing truth with lies in Quran 2:42 / 3:71 and also distorting the words of torah as sunnis and shias are doing today.

      F. are you joking with me? no where in 7:172-174 it says humans are born muslims but you can say born from Muslims, thats the lamest explanation every presented to me and please be logical as i respect logical and honest people regardless of faith.
      By the way word “Dhikr/Thikr” literally means Mention. verse 2:200 makes it clear to mention Allah as you mention your forefathers, if you translate word dhikr to Remember verse makes no sense as who constantly remembers his forefathers unless he is abnormal but people do mention edlers like hadith fan boys mentioning some hadith quoter before hadith which you have made as your elder, when Allah Alone should be mentioned.

      G. How did Quran get to us? Bible was also passed down by same humans and what happened to it? Did Allah take responsibility for future of the bible? and whats that hadith ? Seems like its based on someone’s ego who wants to feed filth in name of GOD.
      now ill pretend as if your an atheist down the street, Allah says in Quran you cannot make anyone belief but Allah does and Allah knows what’s within them.
      Now Hafs and warsh which is nothing more than a propoganda, Have you ever studied history of Quran and how it was originally revealed? i doubt that since Quran never had tashkeel/Vowels in it and its a human invention to make it easy for non arabs or people unfaimiliar with recitation of classical arabic, thus your argument is useless.
      There is only one Quran and thats the Arabic Quran, Tashkeel and translations of Quran are not part of Quran as im sure you do rely on them and sure i would like to discuss this argument further if your interested.
      “Quranists” make no sense because you never met one and only read propoganda against them on Sunni websites, but now you have met one and your questions will be answered.

      G. Since islam is continuation and reform of abrahamic faith so prophet followed direction like others since it is continuation of previous faith as i have answered already until a verse commanded to change it so lets not argue on this.

      H. Never in the history a scripture being sent without prophet explaining it and that is why so many prophets were sent to bani israel to explain the Torah but Quran was the first as Allah says Quran is not only explaning Quran but previous scriptures and Quran does not need Asbab e nazol / timeframe for revelation but it explains asbab e nazol itself. Asbab e nazol in sirah and hadith is nothing more than abuse as reason for revelation of 66:1 is a joke from kafir which you can check yourself and im sure you will be ashmed despite having western values.
      i have twisted no ayah and Quran needs no explanation or tafsir as its kitab ulbeen a clear book.
      Sirah and hadith is a propoganda of devil to mislead and cause corruption as mentioned in
      Quran 52:42
      Or do they intend a plan? But those who disbelieve – they are the object of a plan.
      Read the context of this verse with an open mind and you will understand as you are already an object of Satanic plan and follow rebelious devils who are enemy of Allah. Allah has repeteadly warned you not to trust anyone but Allah which is Quran.
      Again Allah is asking you a question in
      Quran 68:37 / 38
      Or do you have a scripture in which you learn
      That indeed for you is whatever you choose?
      And Also read the context for these ayats.
      Hope you will use reason and come towards truth.

      Reply
      • stewjo004

        Wow… I didn’t know you had the ability to open an individual’s chest and look into their hearts. Where did you learn this skill because suphanAllah I would love to go study it? And yes Allah guides whom He wishes and He also says:

        For those people who are sincere they will have a part of what they earned, because God is swift in accounting. (2:202)

        You are the one who believes he is safe from Allah’s punishment (70:28-29). I think you might be jealous because Allah ma

        A. Moving on are you attempting to argue the battle of Hunain is Uhud? I really don’t understand your point. Alos without hadith or the Seerah or any order of revelation I can argue the following:

        Prayer is abrogated and haram to pray.
        Alcohol and weed is permissible
        Anytime you touch a woman you have to make Wudu.

        B. Never said the verse abrogates ALL charity. I said giving charity before having a private consultation with the Prophet(saw). I also didn’t bring this up anymore because it is a random tangent that doesn’t matter to the core issue of Quraniyoon’s kufr.

        C. Yes you did commit a strawman you started talking about me saying the Prophet(saw) being perfect. I never argued that so it’s a strawman.

        D. It is not mockery to say two sources reached us living over 1,000 years later through the same channels. You can cry and whine in emotional tangents but it doesn’t change the facts.

        E. the Talmud is a mix of a variety of things. The big difference between it and hadith is no chains. Also there are tidbits of truth contained in it but not in the Hebrew Bible so this actually hurts your case.

        F. Yes thikr can mean multiple things depending on the drum roll….please…”context”. A word can take on a different meaning depending on what its talking about in the sentence. Here’s an example in English:

        The space of the car was huge.
        The car went into space.

        Two similar words, “car” and “space”, but they have two completely different meanings. The meaning of “car” is the same, buts “space”, although it’s the same word, due to its context, it has a different meaning which makes it “relative”.
        https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/roots/Thal-Kaf-Ra.html

        Also in the verses Allah clearly states He took a covenant for us to worship Him only Him before we were created. So it’s not my “explanation” that’s what Allah said.

        G. Quranist ALWAYS crumble like puddy when they have to explain how the Quran reached us. The Bible is NOT the Taurat or the Injeel so this example does not work. They also lost it several times in their history. Oh and lol you don’t believe in Warsh, Hafs, etc? Oh this is fantastic so as an “Atheist” now you have NO narrators and don’t know who changed what. Before using you’re “thikr is protected” argument the Bible claims the same:
        “and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” (Revelation 22:19)

        And we know that’s not true (this verse was actually added in to stop people from making changes). Since you’re so “logical” what objective reasons are there for me not believe the Quran has been changed by the hands of men? It doesn’t matter if its in Arabic or not. You have a Semitic language (which are SUPER easy to alter) and all it requires is a simple change of a harakat to change a sentence. The same channels that gave you hadith also gave you the Quran so what PROOF do you have that it has not been altered other than your theological beliefs? What stops the Umayyads (whom modern rulers can’t hold a candle to) from changing the Quran?

        G. “Let’s not argue this” lol this was the original discussion. So cool using the same methodology ALL of the Bible is upheld as long as we don’t have text from the Quran to state otherwise so rulings, beliefs etc. Is that what you’re saying? Also another problem there is no order in the Bible from Allah to pray towards Jerusalem. They get this ruling by what the prophets told them to do (i.e a hadith)

        H. Allah says the Torah was clear guidance
        I inscribed everything for him in the Tablets which taught and explained everything, saying, ‘Hold on to them firmly and urge your people to hold fast to their excellent teachings. I will show you the end of those who rebel. (7:145)

        So there goes that argument (especially when we consider the Quran also gives validity to the Talmud). Also 52:42 and 68:37-38 is referring to the pagan Arabs not the Muslims and this can be clearly seen from the context. So there goes that one. Now my turn please explain this ayat. Allah, when talking to Musa(as) and explaining to him the coming of Muhammad(saw), says some important stuff if you pay attention (emphasis mine):

        “Who follow the Messenger, the illiterate prophet they find described in the Torah that is with them, and in the Gospel. HE WILL ORDER them to what is good and FORBID to them what is evil. And MAKE ALLOWED for them things that are pure, forbid to them all the things that are filthy and HE WILL take off from them the chains and burdens around their necks that used to be on them. Those who will believe in him, obey him out of respect and help him, following the light sent down WITH him and they are the successful ones…” (7:157)

        Allah says the Prophet(saw) himself will make some halal and haram things and that we follow the light (aka the Quran) sent with him. Allah has separated the light and the laws he will set up.

        Reply
        • Admin

          Your Speech exposes you for who you are and i learnt my skill from Quran 47:30, your just a social convert and your aim is to please fellow worshipers not GOD.

          i am scared of Allah as Allah is extreme in punishment and that is why i am a Quranist.

          A. Why did archers abandoned their posts?

          Quranic revelations are perfectly in Order unless you come up with an example and they are not in order for you because you are forbidden from touching the Quran and if you take Quran it will only increase you in error as mentioned in Quran 56:79, 7:30,
          You and your brothers are nothing more than Devils as mentioned in 7:202

          B. Nevermind

          C. Did you tell your brothers muhammad was fallible?

          D. Quran and hadith were never transmitted by same channel, Quran was finalized and written by prophet himself as mentioned in 25:5, 29:48. Hadith is nothing more than propoganda by disbelievers written by hypocrites and mass copying from OT to make islam a seprate religion and end reliance on previous books and to promote disbelief/hatred toward previous books.

          E. chain of narrations make something more reliable? lol, in my opinion its prone to corruption.
          Thats what i exactly said that talmud has truth in it which is highlighted by Quran and your telling me that hurts my case? you have serious issues anyway.

          Regarding Thikr, Invent as you go, is that what you’re telling me? any examples?
          And also you in your example of Car and Space you ended up changing the sentence rather than words. Examples from Quran would be appreciated.

          Okay a covenant was taken from you that you will only worship Allah? Kindly briefly mention your Covenant ceremony ? How it was taken from you and what you recall? i am interested to know as you recalled and reverted. (This is clearly getting silly)

          G. Quran reaches us because Allah took the guardianship, Bible is not injeel then what is it? and as for the rest of the argument you people love inventing which i am not bothering with.

          “and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” (Revelation 22:19)
          This verse is similar to verse of Quran 3:199, Exchanging verses of GOD for a small price which is life of this world which you are involved in. Want me to high light where you exchange verses of Allah for a small price? you’ll be surprised.

          You need a reason to believe that Quran has not been changed by humans? Okay! here you go
          Quran 15:9
          Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian.
          Also Quran 4:82
          Then do they not reflect upon the Qur’an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.

          Just reflect on the verse and you find any contradictions? if not then it is preserved and from GOD.

          Changing harakat makes no difference in the meaning of word but renders the word useless making it Alien and for an Alien word you can invent any meaning without the support of language or dictionary. Maybe you can present me some examples from Quran?
          Example
          Word “DHZJADHSWIEHNDBDHS” Alien Word? Jibberish? now give it any meaning you like and fools will love it and say wow this guy is a genius.

          G. i never said the commandment to pray toward jerusalem is in Bible.
          First direction muslims (Bani israel) prayed in was towards their own Homes and then they were to pray towards Masjid ul Aqsa built in time of David. The commandment to pray towards jerusalem is not in Bible because bible had nothing original in it but continuation and reform of jewish faith plus good news of what was previously forbidden not forbidden anymore.

          Quran no way gives validity to all of talmud.

          52:42 and 68:37-38 is indeed refering to pagans but are you not a pagan? When Allah says you cannot make the dead hear in their graves? yet you call upon a dead Gher Allah / Non Allah 5 times a day in Salat and expect a reply?

          Now 7:157
          to begin with the translation you posted is horrible as word “ummi” does not mean illiterate but some from the Ummah as root is same for both words.
          Next Prophet teaching what is Halal and Haram by the Quran as Quran mentions halal and haram in detail like forbiding pork, blood, dead, riba and the list goes on.
          Prophet was not capable of teaching Halal and haram on his own as mentioned in 66:1 but you keep insisting he could.
          How come Muhammad seprated light and laws when light gives you the laws? as all the laws are in Quran e.g ten commandments and the commandments are foundation of the book as mentioned in Quran 3:7 in which word Muhkimat means laws.
          Sharia law is satanic law purposly made by satan to mislead, Lets compare the Sharia with Quran and can you please enlightend me regarding Hadiths of Rajam and what is the punishment for adulty in sharia law? so we can compare it with law of the Quran.

          Reply
  10. stewjo004

    Wow you must be able to see into the Ghayb because you claim to know. What is in the heart and what someone’s intent is. That is “truly” amazing. Also am i allowed to use this methodology of interpretation you are using to prove hadith or is it magically “context” when referring to those ayat?

    A. Bunch of emotional drivel. The point is without knowing Seerah or hadith I can argue for any order of revelation and change rulings. You cannot objectively prove it wrong either. Same with the definition of Arabic words. I can argue for a number of meanings and you cannot say I’m wrong.

    B. Alrighty

    C. Man you sure are beating the heck out that strawman. He stood no chance, good job.

    D. Oh so the Prophet wrote it himself.Hmmm that’s interesting where is the manuscript or proof? Christians claim the Disciple John wrote the gospel of John and we know that’s not true.Also why would he(saw) learn to read and write in 7th century Arabia when we know illiteracy was high. There was really no need in the Dark ges for most people to know this skill. (Hence why they have few pre Islamic text or artifacts) Furthermore your argument is a circular fallacy. Finally, even if for discussion sake I concede he wrote it what stops the Umayyads or the Sahaba or the Tabieen from changing it? How did this book reach us over a 1,000 years later? I don’t care what the text says I want to know how did we come into possession of it?

    E. The Talmud is not just unverifiable oral tradition it is figh debates, rulings of classical rabbi and rabbinical commentary mostly from the 1st and 2nd century (with some earlier than that). The reason the Talmud hurts your case is the Torah morphed into the Hebrew Bible. The Talmud is not the Torah is a separate thing entirely. There is truth in both texts which means the Jews had 2 separate forms of revelation, the Torah and Prophetic rulings. Also how is “Where did you hear this story” (aka a chain) more reliable than “I was told…” (aka no chain)? The no chain is a major issue in NT scholarship because they don’t know where they got these stories of Isa(as). Anybody could have said anything. To understand wht these text are I wrote two blog post (one with a graph) you can check out:

    https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2019/02/24/corruption-of-the-scriptures-part-i-does-islam-confirm-the-bible-as-a-scripture-from-god/

    https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/missing-books-in-the-bible/

    As has been conceded by the Jews in post 2 they cut multiple books they were given for a variety of reasons. There is nothing objectively in the Quranist narrative from saying this happened other than circular logic.

    F. Okay commit kufr and say Allah didn’t take a Covenant from mankind, when He clearly says He did in Surah Araf. Doesn’t bother me. You already don’t listen when He says to obey the Messenger.

    G. This was the original point of discussion before the tangents lol. But I understand, I wouldn’t want to continue either if I couldn’t defend my beliefs and was proven wrong. So according to Quranist a Qiblah appeared out of nowhere and Allah let Muslims worship Him wrong for over half the Prophet’s(saw) career. Got it. (P.S. there are more ayat like this) Also per the Quranist narrative Muslims are allowed to copy what the Jews and Christians do (as this is how they allegedly learned of this old Qiblah) and there are many ayat to “support” this such as 10:94 as their text are still pure and they simply misinterpreted them. (P.S.S. I can argue all of this with Quran).

    Harakat
    An example of being able to change the text with a shift of the harakat:
    4:164 change the Dammah on the last letter of “Allah” with a Fathah, and you change the meaning of “Allah spoke to Musa” to “Musa spoke to Allah…”

    If you still don’t understand me in 2:124 change “rabbuhu” to “rabbahu” and Ibrahim(s) tests Allah with commands.

    These are small examples but they prove the pont. This was the Jews favorite method of changing text. And this can be done by changing letters or adding a letter.

    H. I don’t call on any dead so once again that analogy is flawed. Praying TO someone is different than praying FOR someone. Using your analogy if a person asks Allah to forgive their dead grandma their a pagan. Also you must consider the Prophet a pagan as well (9:113, 9:84, 9:103 and 60:12)

    And you called Shariah “satanic” in ignorance not realizing Allah calls it Shariah in 45:18 listen closely:
    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/45/18/w4wbv.html

    So congratulations you have insulted the Prophet(saw) and Allah three times. In your last post but still think you are on the truth.

    I. Now read the ayat again carefully Allah tells Musa(as)He is s sending a prophet who will:

    “…ORDER them to what is good and FORBID to them what is evil. And MAKE ALLOWED for them things that are pure, forbid to them all the things that are filthy and HE WILL take off from them the chains and burdens around their necks that used to be on them. Those who will believe in him, obey him out of respect and help him, following the light sent down WITH him and they are the successful ones…”

    Allah has clearly separated some of this prophet’s laws from the light (i.e. The Quran) that He will bring. We know the Quran contains laws. But Allah attributes another set of laws to the Prophet himself as Allah says “he does these things” not “Allah will do these things”. So are you saying the entire Quran is Muhammad’s and not Allah’s Scripture? Please explain this as 66:1 does not help this problem. It has nothing to do with halal and haram and actually further proves my position. He(saw) forbid something for himself not everyone else and Allah corrected this so that people didn’t think it was haram. Why would Allah have to correct this situation if people didn’t follow what the Prophet (saw) did? (Drops mic)

    Reply
    • Admin

      To begin with Quran needs no interpretation or context to revelation as it contains both with in the Quran.

      A. Quran is in accurate order of revelation and im sure you mean Nansak Mansook by ” Change in rulings” which is known as art of rendeing a verse useless due to poor understanding of the Quran as the rules have never been changed as Allah menions in 33:62 that you will never find any change in rules of Allah and also those who invented this art of abrogation are mentioned in Quran 10:39. This information is highly useful to you if you are a man of reason.

      C. Try it with your brothers and im sure you’ll be amazed.

      D. Allah himself wrote the torah so do you have any proof? where are the tablets on which Allah wrote?
      Why would muhammad bother learning to read and write?
      Quran 94:4 says Allah teachs by the pen what Good is God’s pen when his prophet cant even read? What a joke
      Why Quran is unchanged and what stopped Ummayans?
      i have already answered it is Allah who protects it and your possession of Quran is God’s will.

      E. The case of jewish scriptures is different as torah is their main source of law above any other ruling which i have no interest getting into.
      Regarding your link 1 https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2019/02/24/corruption-of-the-scriptures-part-i-does-islam-confirm-the-bible-as-a-scripture-from-god/
      There is not a single clear verse of the Quran that states previous scriptures were corrupted but your assumptions and deep within yourself you know what you have written is nonsense as quran refers and quotes previous scriptures couple of times.
      Your link 2 https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/missing-books-in-the-bible/
      You’re Missing
      1 Gospel of Thomas
      2 Gospel of Judas
      3 Gospel of barnabas
      Which you should read for better understanding of islam and christianity and disciples did write those books and what happened to them afterwards is a completely different story.

      F. Allah took Covenant from previous generations but when was your covenant taken? Recall any memories? as you have reverted back to something you used to be? im interested to know.
      Allah commanded to obey prophet and how to obey the prophet? Read 69:40, not every arab who calls himself muslim like Bukhari and his gang. You doing the same as previous generations did taking scholars instead of GOD.

      G im sure your faith is falling apart but if not then soon inshallah.
      i will not argue on qibla direction as i have given the answer couple of times now and im confused now, first you shared your article of previous scriptures being corrupted and now your saying they are pure just misinterpreted? Any light on this issue would be appreciated.

      Harakat
      What you have posted regarding Harkat is absolute nonsense but lets discuss it.

      4:164 change the Dammah on the last letter of “Allah” with a Fathah, and you change the meaning of “Allah spoke to Musa” to “Musa spoke to Allah…”

      Objection 1, Changing dammah would mess the rhythm of the verse which is the core why tashkeel is used.
      Objection 2, Change in Damman will replace moses the speaker is butchering the Quranic arabic and utter nonsense and lemest invention i ever heard of.
      Objection 3, Word اللَّـهَ is mostly used at the end of sentence or before word “and”و.
      Objection 4, Context of these words كَلَّمَ اللَّـهُ مُوسَ determine it who is first, like Speech is first then Allah and then Moses and no way moses can speak unless its كَلَّمَ مُوسَ اللَّـهُ so no way with any kind of harkart can put moses first unless you present a clear example from the quran.
      Conclusion: This is a very bad example and may Allah curse the liar who taught you this.

      2:124 change “rabbuhu” to “rabbahu” and Ibrahim(s) tests Allah with commands.
      Answer: Same nonsense as before.

      Now its my turn, just one simple verse i will present

      Quran 69:40
      Version 1 إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ
      Transliteration: innahu la qawlu rasoolin kareem

      Version 2 إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٌ كَرِيمٍ
      Transliteration: innahu la qawlu rasoolun kareem

      does the harkat change meaning?

      “These are small examples but they prove the pont. This was the Jews favorite method of changing text. And this can be done by changing letters or adding a letter.” What are you talking about when harakat are not even part of Quran and jews distorted the meaning of the words like muslims of today do which i would love to present examples upon request.

      H. You dont call upon the Dead? okay lets check what you say 5 times a day in Salat
      This is what you say in salat as soon as you go into sitting position
      لتحيات لله والصلوات والطيبات، السلام عليك أيها النبي ورحمة لله

      وبركاته، السلام علينا و على عباد الله الصالحين، أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله، وأشهد أن محمدا عبده و رسوله.

      Now what does السلام عليك أيها النبي literally mean? ill break this down for your easy and would like you to translate.

      Task 1 translate السلام عليك أيها النبي = Means?

      Task 2 translate word by word please.
      السلام = Means?
      عليك = Means?
      أيها = Means?
      النبي= Means?

      Upon completing this you will know this sentence is even gramatically wrong and absolute shirk.

      in 45:18 Allah is speaking of Quran as sharia not satanic sharia from Hadith.

      And i am not insulting prophet or God but reforming which hurts alot as truth is averse.

      I. Prophet is forbidding and set of laws are from the Quran Alone as Allah has not missed out anything from quran as mention in 6:38 and there is no proof in quran Muhammad was given revelation other than Quran, and as you stated laws different from quran then you might tell me if furqan is seprate aswell?
      This hadith is a big joke, first of all Muhammad is given revelation outside quran and then we have hadith al kudis where Allah is speaking outside quran and hadith al kudsi are laughable. Is there a need for Quran? from sunni’s prespective it has nothing in it and serves no practical purpose or any purpose at all.
      I never said Quran is muhammads invention but it was written by Muhammad as commanded by GOD.

      Reply
  11. stewjo004

    A. What are you talking about there is plenty of ayat that you need the context for why they came down or the relevance of their rulings? Just off the top of my head:

    Surah Feel
    Those who are Jews, Christians, Sabians etc will have no fear or regret.
    Surah Burooj
    What is zakah and how much do I pay?
    What is Hajj?

    People misapply Quran ayat all the time (case in point Quranist or your point “A”). There is no methodology other than basically what Christians say: “Oh the Holy Spirit will guide me”.

    B. Idk what that means it was much more clever in your head.

    C. There is none whatsoever. Simply saying the Quran says it is protected is circular logic no matter which way you cut it. What is your actual proof it is not corrupt? ANYBODY can say their Scripture is not corrupt that claims means nothing. What is the proof?

    D. Oh, so you do believe rulings can be taken from the Bible? This is simply great. You guys were started by a gentlemen who claimed to be a prophet and now you’re doing the work of the missionaries. There is so much “truth” oozing from Quranist lips I don’t know what to do with myself. Also, congratulations you have now claimed the Quran is a false book then because we KNOW for a fact verses were added into the Bible such as Mark 16:9-20 or John 8:1-11 and there is NO difference of opinion among textual critics.
    Also, you quoting the gospel of Barnabas etc. further contradicts your last point. If these books were taken out the text was corrupted. However, this isn’t a big deal as none of these books are authentic.

    E. Allah says all the Children of Adam. Again you calling Allah a liar does not mean anything to me. There is nothing people do that shocks me.

    F. Its not rocket science. There is no ruling in the Quran or the Bible to pray towards Jerusalem. Muslims were praying somewhere and Allah changed it. Allah says He ordered the first Qiblah but it is not found in the Quran. They had to learn this from somewhere and this revelation is nowhere to be found. How did the Muslims come to this ruling? You basically said that the Prophet(saw) was blindly copying the Jews who themselves were copying from a corrupt source (the Talmud). There are MANY ayat in the Quran that will mention things that the audience is supposed to know already and this ayat is a good example.

    G. It was literally an example (rolls eyes). It still changes the sentence regardless. This is what the Jews did again textual critics know this for a fact and you quite frankly don’t know what you’re talking about. Crack open any OT textual critic book and you will learn this. They did this to get around Sofrim who counted the Torah’s letters.

    H. Sentence is not shirk.

    I. You have called the Prophet a liar and his law satanic. And so by definition, you also insulted God because He sent him. YOU ARE THE DEVIANT WHO IS SINNING. I do not want you walking away thinking anything else.

    J. You danced around my question. Allah says the prophet he sends will come with his own laws. And Surah Tahreem furthers favor what I’m saying. So what are these laws?

    Reply
    • Admin

      Everything is in the quran and requires no external source regarding why it was revealed and the context.

      How Much Zakat?
      Read https://www.quranandfaith.com/zakat/ and post your objections there.

      What is hajj and how to perform Hajj?
      Read Quran 2:196 to 2:203 and there are various other verses aswel.

      Christians are absolutely right when they say “Oh the Holy Spirit will guide me” and Quran supports them.
      Quran 49:14 Speaks of Faith entering which is similar to entrance of holy spirit.
      Quran 75:16 Muhammad is warned not to be Quick with the quran and explain but Only Allah explains the Quran.#

      B, i simply requested you to mention “Muhammad was fallible” at Mosque you visit.

      C, Simple, Does Quran has errors and contradictions in it? If not then it can only be from Allah and protected if yes then it has been temeperd.

      D, Yes rulings can be taken from Bible when commanded by Quran itself, for example circumcision which is commanded by Allah to be taken from Bible and Was prophet circumcision? at what age and why?

      Rashas Al khalefa was no prophet but an imposter and he came to know of him long after i became Quranist and there were many quranist before him just Google for information and the First Quranist was Prophet Muhammad himself.

      Gospel of Barnabas mentions story of Quran where Abraham was thrown into fire for destroying the statues and you find this story nowhere in OT or NT or any other book in this world, so your telling me barnabas was a fake book and Quran copied from a fake Gospel? Plus you keep accusing me of insulting Quran Allah and Muhammad which is quiet feminine of you.

      The Quran fully supports the gospel of Barnabas and thomas.

      E. im still curious to know what ways you reverted back to? you guys are far far away from something called logic (by the way is there word LOGIC in Quran? anything thats logical in your fake version of islam?). and your the reason your coming up to justify the nonsense of reverting is shocking.

      F. The first Qibla was Masjid al haram built by Abraham and 2nd Qibla was your own house like mentioned in Quran 10:87, 3rd Qibla was Masjid al Aqsa built by David and Finally Allah restored Qibla back to Masjid al Haram. SIMPLE ! That is why Allah says in Quran Ahlul kitab know the Qibla i have redirected you to now is truth ( Original Qibla) and they know it.

      And where did muhammad learn of praying towards Aqsa? your question will be answered when you answer why when and how Muhammad was circumcised?

      Stuff that audience knew already and needed no revelation as in Quran 2:197 Allah speaks of Months of Hajj well known, Known by whom???? Here Allah is clearly refering to Pagans of Arabia and their traditions as they were set by Abraham himself. In this ayah source clearly is the pagans of Arabia.

      G, NO harakat changes the verse as they are not part of Quran and above you cannot truely unless alphabets are changed, you came with a silly argument of Tashkeel which only an ignorant will believe in. what you did makes me sick.

      If you are so truthful and master of Arabic the Please enlighten on the argument i already present below.
      Quran 69:40
      Version 1 إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ
      Transliteration: innahu la qawlu rasoolin kareem

      Version 2 إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٌ كَرِيمٍ
      Transliteration: innahu la qawlu rasoolun kareem

      does the harkat change meaning?

      H. Sentence is not shirk. Just because you say so? and thats the best answer you got?
      Once Again
      what does السلام عليك أيها النبي literally mean? ill break this down for your easy and would like you to translate.

      Task 1 translate السلام عليك أيها النبي = __________?

      Task 2 translate word by word please.
      السلام = _________?
      عليك = __________?
      أيها = ___________?
      النبي= ____________?

      Fill in the blanks Please 🙂
      i will expose the nonsense of your evil scholars, Nonsense never been exposed before and never imagined. Cracks have already started to appear on the foundation of your faith because it stands on nothing and lies have no legs.

      I, Again your strawmanning me by saying in insulted the prophet and Allah when its not me but you, Allah got his own sunnah and Prophet god his own sunnah and both of them cant make their minds up, One says 50 lashes for adultry other says stone him, What is this Sunnah triangle? Sunnat al Nabwi is Absolute lie, Nonsense, Evil, Satanic, Against Quran, Superstitious and it never existed but Sunnat Al nabwi is a bad joke from Satan, PLUS falsely attributed to prophet.

      Now for how long Abu huraira stayed with prophet? since he issued most of the hadiths? What if the he was pious man and devils hijacked his identity to issue hadiths? DO YOU EVER WONDER? or you are satisfied with filth your fed by your scholars?

      J, You keep bringing up that ayah and say light and laws are different well fine, to understand the verse we need to look at another verse of the Quran which im sure you will help me with to understand.
      Quran 9:97The Arabs are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.
      Now tell me what are these “limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger”?????
      What are these limits? Limits of What?

      And now Surah Tahreem 66:1 Kindly give me Asbabe nazool for the verse? Correct me if im wrong, your scholars have written Prophet was caught having intercourse with slave by a wife when he was suppose to be spending night with the wife?

      Your a good learner and all these years you have learnt well from your sunnis brother on how to BS people with Nonsense.

      Reply
  12. stewjo004

    A. There were so many things wrong with that zakat post it would start a whole new tangent just for correction. Long story short, as you acknowledged there is a difference between Zakat and Sadaqa. You took ayat about Sadaqa (and loans?) and tried to use them as “filler” for ayat about zakat.

    B. None of those ayat tell me how to perform Hajj they mention parts of Hajj and expect the audience to know what it is. Again a person who knows nothing about Islam or Arabia (say a white person from Middle-class America) was reading these ayat for the first time they would not know what “Arafat” or “Safa and Marwah” is or what to do there. You can also add certain Surah like Quraish, Fil, Burooj, mentions of “the Tubba” etc. into this category as well. You’re using your previous knowledge you learned from hadith and saying: “Look the Quran mentions it here!” Yes, there are many ayat that don’t require explanation (for example Heaven and Hell, Day of Judgement etc.) but there are ayat that you are expected to know the background to get the point being made.

    Quranist use external references ALL THE TIME. For example this joke of a tafseer:
    http://www.studyquran.org/resources/Quran_Reformist_Translation.pdf

    Or you saying: “Yes rulings can be taken from Bible when commanded by Quran itself.” So the Bible that we know has forgeries in it and we don’t know who wrote any of its books can be used for rulings but hadith who we can trace back and know the people in the chain can’t. What?

    C. Still beating a strawman

    D. Again circular logic. Once again and I’m going to bold this for your understanding, ahem:
    I DO NOT CARE WHAT A TEXT SAYS OR CLAIMS. THIS IS CIRCULAR LOGIC AND IS A F.A.L.L.A.C.Y. THERE IS NO RELIGION ON PLANET EARTH WHO IS GOING TO SIT THERE AND SAY THERE BOOK HAS BEEN CHANGED OR CONTAINS CONTRADICTIONS. Case in point, Jews and Christians. According to the Quranist prophet Rashad Khalifa hadith were mass forgeries (eventually he also said 2 ayat were forgeries). Tayyib. So now I can conclude all of Islam is forged as according you the Quran has no narrators and just plopped out of the sky. Logically if people (which would have had to be Sahaba and tabi’een) were forging hadith and they took the time to make narrators etc and they got through on mass with no scholar ever objecting (and being in on this conspiracy) I have no reason to believe in the Quran who has none according to you. The Quran says it’s protected doesn’t work. Why is that? When people forge they usually place something like this in there to trick the readers. For example, the Revelation verse from the Bible I quoted. If you read the book “Forged: writing in the name of God by Bart Ehrman” he gives many examples of people doing this in antiquity.

    E. Your attempts to make catty comments are actually what is feminine but I digress. The Gospel of Barnabas and Thomas are if my memory serves me correct, 11th-century forgeries in Andalus. Since you don’t believe in historical writing, Andalus was “Muslim Spain” and many Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together. Someone took earlier text and added the references to Islam in them. There is no scholarship alive who says these texts originated in the 1st century.

    F. Now I’m going to tell you this not as an insult but for you to better understand who you are. You are more emotion based than logic based. This is not a negative trait everyone is different and emotional people tend to have better group harmony. But trust me you are emotion based in your arguing and decision making.

    G. For example, look how I showed one can make an altering to a sentence and your reply (again emotional) “what you did makes me sick”. I never said this was the reading I simply showed what the Jews did to the Torah. Since you have no way to prove the Quran there is nothing to theoretically stop someone from doing this to the Quran and all you can say is “yeah people were forging text left and right but they didn’t touch the Quran though!”

    H. A sentence is shirk because you say it is lol? Again no shirk in the sentence I don’t have disprove a claim with no evidence.

    I. This wouldn’t be a “strawman” this would be a “poisoning the well” or “ad hominem” fallacy. Two you insulted something that came from the prophet(saw). So this would not be a case of the aforementioned fallacies.

    J. By that reasoning, I can argue what the Christians claim. The Devil took the form of an angel and forged the Quran. Did you ever wonder that huh or are you satisfied with the filth fed by Rashad Khalifa?

    K. I never argued that laws don’t exist in the Qur’an. I argued there other laws that come from the Prophet(saw) that are religiously binding on Muslims. It is not that he is a god, God has given him the position to do so. Like how a wife is under the authority of her husband. Not because he is a god, God has given this to husbands. Finally, this narration of a slave girl is reported in Tabari or Ibn Ishaq (who did not believe these tales they collected them for further filtering) the authentic one is in regards to honey as reported by Umar. Again if you simply took 1 hadith class openly like in the link I provided all these doubts would be cleared. It was not amateur hour when it came to collecting and codifying in Islam.

    Reply
    • Admin

      It is difficult to dialogue with someone when his faith has no foundation or roots but still ill continue.

      A, Do you even know what the word Zakat literally means? Or is it just an alien word for which your scholars invented meaning?
      To be honest with you, every religion on this planet preaches charity except islam and limited charity to just a day in ramadan which is absolute nonsense as people around us require help all the time but in islam its only obligatory to pay chairty once which mostly goes to Muslim organization which spread corruption and war.
      By the way i am aware you fail to present me the literal meaning of Zakat so i will enlighten you as it means “Purity” Quran says you can give wealth and kind speech after injury to achieve purity, which is same as what jesus said in Bible
      Matt. 15:30.“Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
      So jesus here is speaking of Zakat, Same as Allah speaking that kind speech is better than Sadaka and Allah also says one who purifies himself by donation from wealth.

      B, What is Safa and marwa is like asking what is an Apple? a chicken? a cow? That is one silly argument.
      Additional Hajj practices which are not mentioned in Quran like stoning satan is utter stupidity as many sunnis die in stampede while stoning satan which is a sign that practices is false and Hoards of Sunnis stepping on each other like hoards of animals, well they are worst than animals in a way and full deserve it.
      Rulings from bible which i have mentioned couple of times like God gave abraham word now that word is not in Quran but Torah and word is to circumsize.

      C, How many times do i have to mention i am not follower of rashad and khalifa who is playing the “strawman” game now?

      D, Gospels which you call muslim propoganda have been dated back before islam in 3rd or 4th century.

      E, My decisions are based on logic not emotions and i have given every explanation for whatever i have said.

      F, You failed to tell me the difference between rasoolon and rasoolin yet you argue, you just skip whever your trapped. Good tactic.

      G, If its not shirk then why are you so scared to translate? Seriously?

      H, How many times do i have to tell you i am not rashad al khaleefa fan boy?

      I, Now lets talk about Narrators of the chains which you are obsessed with.
      First of all does Torah have chain of narrations as it was written by GOD himself and i dont blame you for your obsession with narrators but your female tendencies as your belief in narrators ( Bunch of Men in the Desert ) make you feel good, satisfied and happy like a woman’s desire towards a man to help her feel secure and you totally want to sit on their lap which i dont have a problem with but why try and convince me since i believe they were nothing more than hypocrites abusing prophet and gave him image of an egoistic tyrant and a sex maniac.

      Now your turn to answer some Questions

      1 Do you believe Quran is missing verses on breast feeding and stoning? eaten by a goat?

      2 Before Salat why do you touch your ears and say Allah Hu Akbar (Takbeer) What is the mighty wisdom behind touching your ears? and btw Allah Hu Akbar is gramatically wrong and never used by Allah for himself in Quran.
      Did you know touch ears was a pagan practice?

      3 Why you finish salat with saying Salam to your east and west which is ridiculus as salat is for Allah alone?

      4 Which book teaches you salat from start to finish?

      Lets hope you come up with something as i have spent my life searching for answers, Again if you fail you can ask me 🙂

      Reply
  13. John Stewart

    A. Yes I agree. If it very difficult to discuss things with Quranist because they twist the Quran and constantly engage in semantic fallacies and have no methodology for interpretation. Like for example taking ayat about sadaqa and loans as filler for zakat. Or quoting from the Bible and ironically enough a verse that was modified from its original context (see 5 Gospels Jesus Seminar). I mean heck according to this discussion we can just pick from anywhere we like. In conclusion to this point, as your last comment demonstrated you have no idea how economics or even Zakat works. Zakat is supposed to be for the whole year (which is why this is essentially state run in ideal conditions). Idk where you live but it essentially acts as social benefits combined with a macro economy booster like when people get there taxes back at the end of the year. The goal of the economy is for money not to remain stagnant.

    Also Muslims give more charity than the Jews and Christians.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/muslims-give-more-charity-others-uk-poll-says-f6C10703224

    The problem is it is disorganized:
    “The potential is huge. Muslims are expected to give 2.5% of their income (after paying for basic needs such as food, housing and clothing) to charity every year.

    Those voluntary, private donations — known as Zakat — amounted to between $232 billion and $560 billion globally in 2015, according to a United Nations report citing Islamic Development Bank research.

    The money mostly benefits smaller charities that help the poor, orphans, people with disabilities and the elderly.

    Experts say the Middle East would benefit from a more coordinated approach to giving.

    “If you have like minded, smart, engaged philanthropists banding together to act collaboratively, that could be quite powerful and we’ve seen that with some of our Middle Eastern clients,” said Canady.”
    https://money.cnn.com/2017/05/25/news/economy/gulf-arabs-philanthropy-charity/index.html

    The difference made by Muslim charities is often ignored
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/muslim-charity-charities-christmas-homelessness-volunteer-a8117116.html

    Also to refute your claim of Muslim charities “spreading corruption and war”
    https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/international-charities-most-at-risk-of-funding-terrorism-risk-report-says.html

    Since we can apparently take from the Bible to make rulings, Jews and Christians have Zakat as well and this is known as tithes. It’s literally the same concept except its 10% and they can spend on what they want. Which is why the Catholic Church has so much real estate.

    B. Abraham (as) was not given the Torah (I mean dude this is even in the Quran 3:65) What the Jews and Christians are using is NOT the revelations Allah sent. Again if you had hadith you would know this as the subject is explicit

    C. I mean nobody would know what is the significance of Safa and Marwa or why would there be a potential sin for walking in between them. Also have you ever been to Hajj dude? Its literally a wave of people that pull you around. The crowd has momentum in it and if you fall people can’t just stop walking you WILL be pushed forward. It’s literally like saying why can’t a train come to an immediate full stop. Now you see why you’re all agreed to be kuffar? You have now insulted Allah, the Prophet for I think the 4th time now, the Hajj and what Allah has legislated. It doesn’t matter why Allah legislated something. Why did He pick a patch of land in the middle of the desert for everyone to go to and circle around it 7 times? Why did He pick for us to bend over and then fall with our face to the ground? It is not our place to ask why Allah demands what form of worship He wants. This is where your true aqeedah problem lies.

    D. Next just because you deny ashad Khalifah doesn’t make him your leader/ Prophet who you will stand behind on Qiyamah if you don’t repent. The Shia nowadays deny they started from Abdullah ibn Saba and Mukhtar Al Thaqafi. The Christians nowadays deny they started from Paul and Constantine. And now Quranist deny they came from Rashad Khalifa. Trust me all the crap starts running together after a while.

    E. I never said there was a difference between rasoolon and rasoolin you are just stuck on a strawman fallacy. I have demonstrated that if I change harakat I can change the meaning of a sentence. This tangent is irrelevant.

    F. No the Torah does not have a complete chain of narrators (despite the Jews claims this can be demonstrated in the text). Also you conveniently skipped over (like ALL Quranist) how the Quran reached us or your proof that it is unchanged. Yes I will question ANYTHING that people claim is from God and continue to do so. I don’t just naively say: “Oh well it said it was uncorrupt so therefore it must be from Him!” The belief system you’ve adopted is illogical and easily refutable. Case in point the ayat about Qiblah or sex with spouses during the night of Ramadan (and again I can add many more ayat such as these)

    H. Finally I hate to be the person to tell you this but you’re not logical. Most of your arguments have been based solely on emotional reasoning and fallacies. If this had been something like a High School formal debate this discussion would have been basically a tko win for my side. All my points still stand strong (barring one ayat which could be interpreted multiple ways) and my contentions have not been answered with anything other than “I believe because of theological reasons like the Christians”. As for the rest of your shotgun tangents this is just a means to try and save from the verbal thrashing distract and create new arguments. Let’s finish these candy bars before opening new ones.

    Reply
  14. Admin

    Coversation is difficult with dishonest people, now dont assume i am calling you dishonest but scroll up and check how many questions did i answer and how many did you, ill let you and people be the judge.

    Now the zakat, Zakat in mainstream islam is nothing but a greedy rule invented by people and leaders of 2.5%, did you know in islamic countries banks automatically deduct 2.5% of total amound at the end of ramadan? now thats unjust.
    Further more zakat money was used by rulers to build and maintain harems because of their sexual addictions when every religion on the planet preaches to oppress sexual desires but anyway in modern times zakat is being used by rulers to oppress and when zakat is given to religious organizations like Mosque or charity organization it is hoarded by the scholar or spend for sake of terrorism to kill innocents.

    And further more i dont know how much knowledge you have of current world but people fall in debt throughout the year or have medical bills to pay or need money to pay for treatment which in case not paid might terminate their life of increase the infections so your telling me they should wait till Ramadan? How made this stupid concept of zakat once a year? and above all more foolish are those who obey such laws… But nevermind.

    You said
    “The potential is huge. Muslims are expected to give 2.5% of their income (after paying for basic needs such as food, housing and clothing) to charity every year.

    Allah said
    Quran 2:280 And if [the debtor] is in straits, let there be a respite until the time of ease; and if you remit [the debt] as charity, it will be better for you, should you know.

    I mean seriously man have you ever studied the Quran?

    You said
    Experts say the Middle East would benefit from a more coordinated approach to giving.
    Seriously? What about all the oil?
    Muslims of today have a mental disease and they love being ruled by tyrants and love to butter them. ( to be Honest Muslims and their islam is sick )

    No where in the OT, NT or Quran it compulsory to donate to religious organizations but spend on poor around you as Allah says woe to one who drives away the orphan and the needy.

    B, Excuse me? where did i exactly say Abraham was given torah or is it devils whispering in your mind?

    C, Asking about safa and marwa is just like asking about what a Fig, Apple, Chicken or fish is.
    OR Asking what is Newyork? London? Paris? Seriously????????????????????

    As you mentioned my aqeedah and i have also insulted Allah and Muhammad but i have not but the silly desert dwellers did in hadiths whom you serve by dressing in a big skirt, Now tell me did prophet wear that big skirt like dress if so then how come he managed to ride a horse with such a dress as mentioned in hadiths?

    D, i will not bother with your accusations of being slave of khalifa.

    E, Listen man, you do have mental issues and please scroll up and check if i have accused you of telling the difference in rasoolun/rasoolin but i asked you what the difference is.
    Please, will you stop inventing and torturing me with your accusations?

    F. ( VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT ) so your telling me chain of narrators help make an oral tradition more authentic then Allah coming down and writing with his own Hands? That is some serious obsession of yours towards the desert dwellers.

    G, you are not the first i am dealing with as i have delt with plenty of people in my life and took part in debates/dialogues and all my research and conclusion is the result of dialogues and experiences based on logic rather than what i was satisfied with and the true islam is to reform yourself when truth comes to you rather than getting hurt or be stubborn or to weep like a woman.

    Reply
  15. stewjo004

    Yes, I agree 110% it is. Especially when the person is shotgunning tangents and ignoring my original contention which was did the Prophet(saw) receive other revelations besides the Quran? The answer was yes and there’s been dancing the question since.

    I can’t be responsible for what others do. IF its as you say (and I say if because you don’t provide references for your claims) and they do something haram that’s between them and their Lord as I am in no position to change it. I haven’t studied this so I can’t comment on it but I would probably say if the description is as you say the bank etc. wouldn’t NECESSARILY be haram if they’re helping in the distribution of the zakat. (depending on some other factors). Also regarding the oil thing that wouldn’t go entirely to the poor. Would you like if someone came and said you have to give all the profits of YOUR business to the poor? Didn’t think so. 1/5th is distributed to the State for public interest and the rest is like any normal business as long as zakat is paid when due etc.

    Even then if there was better coordination at the State level that would be more than enough for the poor. This would essentially be waiting in case a person did become poor.

    Moving on, using your “brilliant” argument I guess social services like SSI, food stamps etc. just don’t work then because you only collect taxes once a year hardy har har. A person’s zakat can be split into once a month or given all at once depending on circumstances. You would know this if you actually studied the subject instead of insulting Islam (which you committed a freudian slip in saying you’re not a Muslim) and talking from where your back pocket lies. In most Western countries which is where I assume your from, there is not enough zakat to sustain people for a long time as there aren’t that many Muslims or people to enforce the collection.

    Also, I know reading comprehension must be difficult the next series of quotes you attempt to refute were not myself speaking but economists.

    As for the rest of the tangents:

    A. Ayat 2:280 isn’t even relevant to zakat it’s about loans. Seriously have YOU studied the Qur’an?
    B. Never said the zakat is donated to religious organizations. So that argument is dead
    C. I’ll just requote due to reading comprehension issues: “I mean nobody would know what is the significance of Safa and Marwa or why would there be a potential sin for walking in between them.”
    D. Also, I’m sorry this wasn’t you:
    “Rulings from bible which i have mentioned couple of times like God gave abraham word now that word is not in Quran but Torah and word is to circumsize.”
    E. I know its not worth responding to being a follower of the false prophet Rashad Khalifa as there’s nothing to say about the subject. It’s like saying water is wet it’s a known thing that he is the leader of Quranist.
    F. The argument of rasoolun/rasoolin is a strawman.
    My contention: You can change harakat to change a sentence in the Quran.
    Your response: No.
    I counter with 2 examples.
    You respond: Well what’s the difference between rasoolun/rasoolin huh?
    This question makes no difference between my original contention or the argument.
    H. Man your lack of respect for Allah, the Prophet(saw) or the Sahaba is incredible. So you say Allah came down to Earth and wrote the Qur’an with His own Hands. Okay, where is this book and what’s the proof?The reality is the Quran is an ORAL tradition genius. Allah narrates to Jibreel(saw) who narrates to the Prophet(saw) who narrates to others. I know this pains Quranist but the Quran itself is basically a giant hadith contrary to the fantasy belief that this is how we got the Quran:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvkjAnl3RRs

    I. You are emotional and all your arguments have been emotional or fallacious. I’m not even being insulting. People who are feelings based have advantages over logical people in different areas. Allah has blessed people in different ways.

    Reply
    • Admin

      You absolutely failed to prove Muhammad received any other revelation than Quran other than inventing meanings which was the original argument and i did make the correction.
      Do you even know the difference in Zahir and nazool?

      A. Ayat 2:280 is about loans? in my life i never heard this before or found it in any of tafseers. Brilliant!
      B, Can you enlighten me on who wrote torah for the first time on tablets?
      C, Can i expect a simple answer regading chain of narrations through generations make oral traditions more authetic?
      D, All mushrikeen believe they are blessed guided so not a big deal.

      Reply
  16. stewjo004

    You have never showed where in the Quran there is a different Qibla or that is haram to be intimate with your spouse the night of Ramadan. You made a claim that the Muslims blindly copied the Jews and Christians for 13 years (despite not interacting with them in Mecca) then that was proven false s there is no verse in the Bible to say to pray towards Jerusalem. And then regarding Ramadan you said nothing at all.

    B.Your lack of reading the Qur’an is not everyone else’s’ problem. This known through the ayat’s context and tafseer:

    Allah will obliterate interest and will raise what’s given in charity. Allah has no love for the ingrates that persistently pile up sins. Those who have faith, did the simplest of good deeds, performed the prayer and gave charity then their reward is with their Lord and there will be no fear or regret. Oh you who believe! Fear Allah and give up the interest which is still due to you, if you truly believe. If you still insist on collecting it then take notice, this is the declaration of war from Allah and His Messenger against you. If you repent however, you’re entitled to take back the original amount lent. Do not do wrong, and no wrong will be done to you. If the borrower is having a hard time, then grant them time until it’s easier for them to pay. If you forgo the loan and give it to them as charity it would be much better for you, if only you knew. Protect yourself against the Day when you will be returned to Allah. Then every soul will be paid completely, for what they’ve earned, and none will be wronged. Oh you who believe! When you have a debt to be paid at a specified time, put it down in writing… (2:276-282)

    As much as loans are obviously being talked about now from tafseer:

    “(And if the debtor is having a hard time, then grant him time till it is easy for him to repay; but if you remit it by way of charity, that is better for you if you did but know.) Allah commands creditors to be patient with debtors who are having a hard time financially,

    (And if the debtor is having a hard time (has no money), then grant him time till it is easy for him to repay.)

    During the time of Jahiliyyah, when the debt came to term, the creditor would say to the debtor, “Either pay now or interest will be added to the debt.”

    Allah encouraged creditors to give debtors respite regarding their debts and promised all that is good, and a great reward from Him for this righteous deed,

    (But if you remit it by way of charity, that is better for you if you did but know) meaning, if you forfeit your debts and cancel them completely.

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=115

    That’s what happens when you act arrogant.

    C. I’ll let you answer that. Is something more likely to be authentic if you give a reference to your source?

    D. I agree. Which is why you make arrogant comments about the Muslims and your hatred of converts is telling.

    Reply
    • Admin

      i have answered all your Question now you agree or disagree that is a different matter.

      B, i lack reading of Quran but you are the one who rely on tafseer and whoever lacks understanding seeks tafseer.
      There are sevral verses of Quran banning tafseer and mostly tafseer is work of satan check 66:1 for reference.
      C, im sure you are aware that no one is obliged to accept tafseer as different writers have different opinions but never mind whatever i say will be ridiculed by you.

      D 2:280 no where mention loan or lending but tafseer writers can come up with anything to bend the way of Allah.

      E, You got it all wrong, i asked you to explain if chain of narrators make an oral tradition more authentic, why would i answer when i laugh at such concepts?

      F, Well, Muslims of today such as sunnis and shias are disbelievers and worst of moving creatures and converts like you convert to islam because you have failed in your own materialistic society (maybe your scared of being lonely) and couldn’t keep up, which i blame western life style for and you converted for the hope that things will get better and you might end up with friends and a partner ( so your a social convert as you converted for sake of people), when in reality converting is for Allah and suffering for truth is the right path like Quranists are being persecuted for belief through out the world (Check ahl-alquran.com how Quranists are being treated in Muslim world), we abandoned what you have just accepted for sake of GOD as our account is with GOD and above all the cult you have joined we have no interest in, literally disgusting and is sickening to us.

      Reply
  17. stewjo004

    A. You made a bunch of assertions with no proof (like Ramadan) or things that border on the ridiculous like Muslims praying wrong for 13 years. Nor can you explain how the Qur’an reached us except just “magic”

    B. The ayat is clearly talking about loans. You said no tafseer says its loans and then when proven wrong all of a sudden tafseer is evil. No one is twisting anything you simply have poor reading comprehension. The verse is about loans not zakat. Hence mention of a borrower. Do you borrow zakat?

    C. So you laugh at quoting references got it.

    D. I know Islam is disgusting to you. Trust me all the deviants such as Shia, Ahmadiyya etc give pity stories about how their kufr has caused them to be oppressed. Also, it’s very interesting you can claim to see into the heart of someone it’s truly a fascinating gift. I think your self conscious because you lost to someone not even born a Muslim and it hurts that Allah has replaced you with someone better.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFyuHZfHHjA

    Reply
    • Admin

      A. Scroll up and i have answered all your questions.

      B. Your too quick to claim victory yet you hardly put any effort to answer any of the questions stated by me but anyways tell me what is the arabic word for “Loan” in Quran 2:280?

      C. Your comparing Quranism to Shia and Ahamadiya? that is one bad comparison but nevermind.
      i never claimed to see in somebodys heard but you absolutely failed to answer why you Say Takbir? Why direct Salam to Muhammad in salat? Why Salam at end of salat? What is the difference in rasoolin and rasoolun? And in Quran 9:97 what does Allah means by limits which you should remain in? Why Quran says 50 lashes for adulty and Hadith says death? And what is the difference in nazol and zahir?
      Plus i asked you does chain of narrators make oral tradition more authentic and God himself did not come down to write torah?
      ( NO ANSWERS JUST EXCUSES ) How will you defend your faith in future from Quranists?
      The list goes on for questions i have asked which you skipped as if i didn’t ask anything and your claiming victory?
      All you have done is avoided questions, kept running around in circles and finally you got the chance to claim victory over something unclear which none of the Quranists accept ( For your info none of the quranists i am aware of go by Tafsir).
      That is why i believe Sunni Muslims have a disease in heart and its useless to dialogue with them except few.

      Above all i have debated many hadith fan boys till now so i am used to these kinds of excuses and accusations so i am fully aware of your mindset, intentions and desire to win an argument.

      Reply
  18. stewjo004

    A. No you didn’t you made a bunch of assertions without evidence or reference. Like how there is no Bible verse that orders praying towards Jerusalem. You also never explained how the Quran reached us uncorrupted other than circular logic. According to you it just magically droped from the sky
    B. Why would I postpone giving someone charity until they are in ease? The entire passage is about interest. What does someone pay interest on? Loans. Allah is basically saying: “Don’t take interest on loans. If someone is having a hard time give them more time until get their finances stable and if you give up a debt someone owes you it’s an act of charity”.
    C. Yes they’re all kuffar and if they don’t repent will be in the Fire.
    D. Still beating that strawman to death. This makes no difference on my contention. It’s not “running” its just a stupid tangent. I just had to prove I can change the Quran by changing harakat which I did. Your off in lal la land right now.
    E. Ayat is saying the Bedouins are less likely to keep in the limits Allah AND His Messenger have prescribed.
    F. Yes quoting your reference has a higher chance of making a report authentic. Like how the Quran is solid because of this (as again it’s an oral tradition) Also Allah MAY have dictated the Torah to Musa(as) directly He did not however come down to earth write it, drop it off to everyone and then float back up into the sky.
    G. You NOW don’t go by tafsir because you were proven wrong, 4 days ago tafsir was fine and dandy does this ring a bell?
    “A. Ayat 2:280 is about loans? in my life i never heard this before or found it in any of tafseers. Brilliant!”

    H. The disease is actually your refusal to listen to the Prophet(saw). The few people you get are ignorant folk who don’t know any better.
    I. I have no need to claim victory it kinda just is as all my points are still standing strong. If you disagree please give an executive summary of Ramadan, Qiblah and how the Quran reached us over 1,000 years later. As I searched far and wide but see nothing.

    Reply
    • Admin

      A, “Loan” is your interpretation yet missing in arabic verse and i never said i accept tafsir.
      And check this wonderful tafsir done by your scholars
      https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=69&tAyahNo=32&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

      B. Can you find word “Logic” in Quran you have? maybe that is why you lack logic and rely on desert dwellers for understanding of faith.

      C. Quran 9:97 Mentions Limits of Allah revealed ( Means Quran Only ) and ayat speaks of arabs not Bedouins, Correct me if im wrong?

      D. God May have dictated torah to Moses? Check Quran 7:145 as it clearly states Allah himself wrote torah for moses. Allah is clearly the writer. ( You clearly dont believe in God deep inside but i appreciate your honesty )
      its funny that god and his messengers cannot read or write but both are revealing books. Seriously? Your islam is beyond my grasp.

      E. i do not listen to your prophet of hadith because i find him utterly stupid in hadith and supertitious and above all i find him cruel, deceitful, sexual maniac. ( imaginary prophet ) infact its devil speaking and hadith is true satanic bible.

      F. Quran has reached us by miracle of GOD who defended it, Just reflect on verses and do u find any contradictions or stupidty? No! but you do find contradictions and stupidity of highest level in hadiths which even your scholars admit.

      Reply
      • stewjo004

        A. You tried saying loans were not in any tafsir and were proven wrong just be humble. Next I’ll just repeat again here:

        “Why would I postpone giving someone charity until they are in ease? The entire passage is about interest. What does someone pay interest on? Loans. Allah is basically saying: “Don’t take interest on loans. If someone is having a hard time give them more time until get their finances stable and if you give up a debt someone owes you it’s an act of charity”.

        Finally Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs is not a reliable book. It says this even in the introduction:

        “There is no doubt that this commentary is not the work of Ibn ‘Abbas. The chain of transmitters of this commentary goes back to Muhammad Ibn Marwan> al-Kalbi> Abu Salih which is described by Hadith experts as the chain of lies (silsilat al-kadhib), for this line of transmission is utterly dubious and unreliable. One does not even need to use the criteria for reliable transmission applied by Hadith experts to decide this commentary’s wrong attribution to Ibn ‘Abbas. It is easy to detect obvious anomalies in the text of Tanwir al-Miqbas which leave one with no doubt that whoever wrote it lived many centuries after Ibn ‘Abbas. One finds it, for instance, references to Hasan al-Basri, al-Suddi and even the grammarian Yahya Ibn Ziyad alFarra’ (d. 207/822).6 In a few places, after giving different meanings of the same verse, the author(s) or compiler(s) proceed(s) to say: “… and this is the opinion of Ibn ‘Abbas” or: “Ibn ‘Abbas says…”, forgetting that the entire commentary is supposed to be an accurate transmission of what is narrated from Ibn ‘Abbas.…” (pg. 5)
        https://www.altafsir.com/Books/IbnAbbas.pdf

        I imagine this must be embarrassing for you. Reading is your friend.

        B. No the english word “logic” is not in the Quran. However it does not the stop the fact that all you rely on is circular logic.

        C. Hans Wehr says the meaning is bedouin:
        https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/roots/Ayn-Ra-Ba.html

        Also the ayat does not say Quran only. It says the limits of Allah AND His Messenger.

        D. Word means to write or dictate.
        https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/roots/Kaf-Ta-Ba.html

        One can dictate and still be the author of something. Hence why Allah says the Quran is in the hands of Scribes (80:13-16) If Allah wrote it what does it need to be in a scribes hand for?

        E. I would also HIGHLY suggest you make tauba to Allah for the kufr you just typed.

        F. That means nothing and once again I DO NOT CARE WHAT A TEXT SAYS. How did it reach YOU man living 1000 years later? You sound like the Christians and Jews who say the same stupid crap. People in antiquity COMMONLY said things like that when changing text. What is the proof of lack of corruption? PROVE to me we have the same Quran that the Prophet(saw) was using.

        Reply
        • Admin

          A. i have to admit that “Loan” was not in tafsir but we reject all tafsir so i will have to give you a point on this one. Well Done!
          Verse 2:280 mentions charity in tough times as mentioned in sirat of ali that he once went shopping and ended up donating instead of shopping for wife and similar examples of prophet in hadiths where he donated even in tough times and verse can possible have duel understandings so thats not a big deal.

          B. Okay you guys can reject and accept any tafsir scholar since we reject all as its least of our worries and we dont have a time machine to judge.
          And its not embarising for us but surely for you guys as we take Quran literaly and needs no interpretation

          C. Word Logic does not exist in the Quran or is it your scholars fooling you? Lets check some verses

          Verse 4:6
          وَابْتَلُوا الْيَتَامَىٰ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغُوا النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُم مِّنْهُمْ رُشْدًا
          And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you sense in them Logic

          Verse 7:146
          سَأَصْرِفُ عَنْ آيَاتِيَ الَّذِينَ يَتَكَبَّرُونَ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوْا كُلَّ آيَةٍ لَّا يُؤْمِنُوا بِهَا وَإِن يَرَوْا سَبِيلَ الرُّشْدِ لَا يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلًا وَإِن يَرَوْا سَبِيلَ الْغَيِّ يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلً
          I will turn away from My signs those who are arrogant upon the earth without right; and if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. And if they see the way of logic, they will not adopt it as a way; but if they see the way of error, they will adopt it as a way.

          Verse `18:10
          إِذْ أَوَى الْفِتْيَةُ إِلَى الْكَهْفِ فَقَالُوا رَبَّنَا آتِنَا مِن لَّدُنكَ رَحْمَةً وَهَيِّئْ لَنَا مِنْ أَمْرِنَا رَشَدًا
          when the youths retreated to the cave and said, “Our Lord, grant us from Yourself mercy and prepare for us a matter by logic.

          Verse 18:66
          قَالَ لَهُ مُوسَىٰ هَلْ أَتَّبِعُكَ عَلَىٰ أَن تُعَلِّمَنِ مِمَّا عُلِّمْتَ رُشْدًا
          Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of logic?”

          Verse 72:2
          يَهْدِي إِلَى الرُّشْدِ فَآمَنَّا بِهِ ۖ وَلَن نُّشْرِكَ بِرَبِّنَا أَحَدًا
          It guides to logic, and we have believed in it. And we will never associate with our Lord anyone.

          Word رُشْدًا clearly means logic/rational thinking as one can only be guided by logic, For Example
          2+2=4
          4+4=8
          Simple!
          But i am sure you will come up with an argument to render all of this useless as i am aware of what is within you. 🙂

          D. Quran 9:97 mentions word Al Arab which according to you means bedouin? So you and your scholars will teach Allah the arabic and correct him? since he doesnt know the difference in arab and bedouin?

          Okay lets look at Quran 33:20
          يَحْسَبُونَ الْأَحْزَابَ لَمْ يَذْهَبُوا ۖ وَإِن يَأْتِ الْأَحْزَابُ يَوَدُّوا لَوْ أَنَّهُم بَادُونَ فِي الْأَعْرَابِ يَسْأَلُونَ عَنْ أَنبَائِكُمْ ۖ وَلَوْ كَانُوا فِيكُم مَّا قَاتَلُوا إِلَّا قَلِيلً

          Allah has mentioned two words here بَادُو Badu and الْأَعْرَابِ Al Aarab, Can you please tell me the difference in both these words? Since your arabic is way superior than Allah and your scholars teach/Correct Allah.
          Lets see how you defend your masters on this one, Allah knew you would distort words of Quran so he planned and excellent is he in planning.

          E. Hence why Allah says the Quran is in the hands of Scribes (80:13-16) LOOOOOOOOOOLZ
          Lets look at the verse
          Quran 80:16 بِأَيْدِي سَفَرَةٍ
          Word safara سَفَرَةٍ is singular not plural hence it cannot mean scribes, anyway lets look at what word really means since all your scholars and translators got it wrong and lies to you…
          You Can always use Google translator for help since سَفَرَةٍ is a common/basic word, no rocket science.

          The root for سَفَرَةٍ safara is سفر Safar which means “Travel” and Safara means traveller. so the correct translation would be “in the hands of traveller”

          in (80:13-16) Muhammad is holding Sheets Quran is written on by his hands and travelling and preaching and Allah has also called him Noble and dutiful.
          I hope now you understand why we are so against the system your supporting.

          F. There is still time to repent and enter the true islam which is from Quran Alone only if you are a man of logic.

          G. Seriously ? Narration of religion by bunch of sand monkeys in the middle of desert made it more authetic for you? world knows how decitful, dishonest and stupid arabs are and all they have donated is terrorism in the name peace which is hilarious.
          Are you for sure impressed by image of prophet transmitted? Like camel piss cola and his deception in war, assassination of critics and sexual addictions by the oximorons? to seems like they abused him in hadiths and you liked the idea.

          Hadith:

          حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي عُمَرَ حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ عَنْ أَبِي النَّضْرِ مَوْلَى عُمَرَ بْنِ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ زُرْعَةَ بْنِ مُسْلِمِ بْنِ جَرْهَدٍ الْأَسْلَمِيِّ عَنْ جَدِّهِ جَرْهَدٍ قَالَ مَرَّ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِجَرْهَدٍ فِي الْمَسْجِدِ وَقَدْ انْكَشَفَ فَخِذُهُ فَقَال إِنَّ الْفَخِذَ عَوْرَةٌ
          “From Jarhad who said that the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhi salam) passed by Jarhad in the masjid and his thigh was exposed and the Prophet told him, “Verily the thigh is ‘awrah [Inna Al-Fakhidha ‘awrah].”

          From Abi Kathir mawla of Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Jahsh from Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Jahsh who said, “We were with Rasulullah (‘alayhis salam) and we passed by Ma’mar who was sitting near his place in the market and his two thighs were uncovered. The Prophet said to him, “Oh Ma’mar! Cover your thighs, for verily the thighs of from ‘awrah!” [Ahmad in his Musnad 5/290, Bukhari in his Tarikh Al-Kabir, Al-Hakim in his Mustadarak 4/180 in his chapter on libaas (clothing), Al-Bayhaqi in his Sunan who declared it Sahih]
          And many more similar hadiths.

          Seriously prophet after having so many women was getting aroused by a male thigh? What kind of man gets sexual arousal by another mans thigh unless he got bisexual tendencies. You believe that nonsense?
          In hadiths its transmitted he was sexual maniac, had bisexual tendencies, was barberic, warlord etc, i am wondering if these transmitors have not abused him in any manner which accidently they left out.
          Every disbeliever had his share of abusing muhammad in every possible way which you consider holy.

          Reply
  19. stewjo004

    A. You’re the one who brought the subject up. So now you are using hadith? Since its no no good according to you define why a person would have zakat postposend for them until they were in easier times.
    B. When you explain a quran ayat to someone that is tafsir. So yes you do accept tafsir you just reject scholarly works.
    C. So, the ENGLISH word L.O.G.I.C. is in the Qur’an? Fascinating where is it?
    D. Yes I take a non Muslim lexicon (so you can’t claim biasness) over your racist interpretation.
    E. Why not create your own fan fiction at this point. Then what happened?
    F. It does not say he(saw) was aroused he said cover your parts. It’s like if your fly is open and I tell you to cover yourself. I’m not aroused I’m telling you your exposing yourself.
    G. So NOW it makes sense. So you DO believe the Sahaba and the Tabieen forged Islam. Am I right about this?

    Reply
    • Admin

      A. Listen steve the only reason i used hadith was for your sake as an example but not to defend myself and Allah clearly meant chairty to be done in tough times as someones life could depend on it in this cruel world which you totally miss the point.

      B. No, I do not explain the ayat to someone as it is Allah who explains it and it seems like im explaining but i am not yet in literal sense as most people imagine alot while reading and can hardly understand a clearly written statement and Allah Does agree with me when Allah says in Quran 4:78 What is wrong with the people that you hardly understand a statement.

      Prophet muhammad has already said in the Quran that my nation has abandoned the Quran in 25:30 and muslims of today uphold satanic bible which is hadith.

      C. So, the ENGLISH word L.O.G.I.C. is in the Qur’an? Fascinating where is it?
      i’m glad you learnt something and got the point but you said this out of ego and arrogance which i dont mind.

      D. Quran needs no lexicon as it is a lexicon itself, Ask any arab what word safar means and Safara in lexicon would have been better translated as scribe instead of scribes as safara is singular. Stubborn i would say that you will go with falsehood instead when truth has come to you now wait for retribution of Allah as it has been drawn near to you and Allah does not like stubborn people but humbled.

      And let me enlighten you word Al araab means arab and Badou means bedouin as you have clearly seen both in the ayat and became speechless and accused me of being racist and Allah also used the word Badoo for Jacob AKA israel.

      E. i have no idea what you mean by creating fan faction.

      F. Well the hadiths clearly mention aura which means parts that arouse sexual desires, if not aroused and normal then why say it? THINK THINK THINK And reflect of those hadiths again and again.

      G. Your absolutely right, Disbelievers took false oaths as hypocrites and forged islam as Quran already prophesied prophet that they are waiting for your death( Not only that but they set up their own mosques mentioned as masjid al dharar in Quran) and also you can check chapter Al Munafiqoon for reference.

      Humble yourself and come towards Quranism so Allah can show you miracles and have mercy on you otherwise expect retribution as a recompense of this discussion from Allah, i am only warning you and i am not asking you to follow my ideology but limit yourself to Quran Alone rest of the understanding is with Allah.

      You know i used to wonder myself as a Quranist as often quranists are being asked “How come you disbelieve in the hadiths and accept the hadiths regarding first revelation in a cave which is not in the Quran” i searched and searched and found no answer but one day Allah showed to me how he revealed the first revelation to his servant muhammad which i have written article about here https://www.quranandfaith.com/first-revelation/.
      The point of mentioning is not to tell i am some holy personality which i am not at all but ask Allah for help as he is the one who can reveal the truth to you in times of confusion.

      Reply
  20. stewjo004

    Lol! Oh okay, the admin is dang near receiving wahy from the heavens. This ALWAYS happens with deviants. So I want to make sure it’s clear for everyone reading you’re saying Abu Hureira(ra), Aisha(ra), Ibn Umar(ra), Ibn Abbas(ra) etc. all forged hadith correct?

    Reply
    • Fuad

      Abu huraira was a stupid man who stayed with prophet for less than 2 years and issued more hadiths than those who spend life with prophet, abu huraira also insulted aysha in a hadith when caught by aysha about saying stuff which prophet never said and sahaba used to run away whenever they saw huraira. He was one ugly creature.
      Aysha is an imaginaty character invented by pedophiles to allow child marriage in islam.
      Umar and abbas have not quoted or written any hadiths directly but hypocrites used their names to issue hadiths.

      B. Challenge me on first revelation if i have not shared never been shared before? I could have kept it secret but i openly shared it, or do you know anyone else who discovered it before me?

      Reply

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